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Dear, Vault wiki, Ghost Avatar angry mobs, et cetera, and other things

Death threats meaning threats of the termination of my account (e.g. it's "death"), I'm sorry I left room for confusion. As for trying "discrediting someone" I couldn't have made a sloppier choice of words, also I was pointing out my error and I don't need you to remind me of it. Originally this mess started out as an attempt to remove speculative conjecture as it violated what little I knew about this wiki's policy: that articles were meant to only have content that can be proven, that it couldn't simply be speculation or conjecture that could not be proven without confirmation by one of the game's developers. I was warned by Great Mara not to always include references for any sort of developer confirmation of a hypothesis, and I persist that the background section of the Assassin Suit page is a hypothesis that has no solid proof though some in-game evidence with which to build conjecture. I wanted to maintain a none confrontational approach to this argument until I was informed of the reference policy on the 13th. On the 15th I posted this following statement:

  There is nothing saying that the Assassin suit originated from Big Mt. nothing saying specifically if it is the first of it's kind or the last, there are bits of a similar suit through out X-13, but there are also components of the Chinese stealth armor as well. There are no written documents that I have been able to find confirming that the Assassin Suit originated form Big Mountain, nor any saying that the Stealth suit MK II is a later product than the Assassin Suit, If I can get a confirmation from J.E. Sawyer's formspring, or Jason Bergman's thread, then O'd gladly put up a Behind the Scene's section with a proper reference. Until then, you can rail against me all you want, and vandalize my chat page if it is in fact confirmed by someone who actually worked on writing the game, but Until then there is just as much evidence of Robo-brains originating there just because you can make one using the splicing system at X-8. (Troper of the Wastelands 05:07, August 15, 2011 (UTC)) 

Which attracted response from FourWayDiablo who wrote:

Hi Troper. Just a note to let you know I undid your edit on the Assassin suit page. You gave no reason on the page, but I can see you've got some things going on with other editors about this. Here's my reason for the revert: I can see why you did it, but although the info could be considered speculation or conjecture it is not "wrong", and can be inferred from facts presented in the game. There has to be a point on this wiki where pages go beyond simply copying information from the GECK, and present things in a more interesting way. It's a fine line, but simply deleting content without giving a reason doesn't really help anyone. Please give reasons when you make an edit, as it saves everyone's time. All the best, --FourWayDiablo 14:15, August 15, 2011 (UTC) Update. My points still stand, but having read through the Talk page I throw my hands up. Delete the section again if you want. This is not a Brain Surgery Wiki (I really hope that's not an actual thing), and life is too short. I care about the integrity of the information, but you'd have to extirpate info from almost every page to avoid all fan enthusiasm for the game. All the best, --FourWayDiablo 14:40, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

My response: The statement in the Background section is a hypothesis, one that however likely, is still only a hypothesis and not a fact. Suppose for a moment that the Chinese Stealth Suit never had a name indicating its origin, never had any appearance in the fallout series that would suggest it's Chinese heritage, not even it's use by the Crimson Dragoons when it was introduced in Operation: Anchorage (add-on) nor any other appearance suggesting it was ever in anyway connected to the Chinese, and no player or editor of this wiki had ever knew its origin, let alone its existence. Now if you were to find this previously unknown suit of armor, disassemble and reverse engineered through-out X-13 would you possibly assume that it was originally built at big mountain as part of the stealth suit project? This goes with other things appearing at big mountain, Cyber dogs have not had their origins fully explained, they were used occasionally by pre-war police and the Enclave to some extent, then suddenly they appear at big mountain, apparently are produced there have enormous amounts of research and testing dedicated to them, does that mean they were originally from big mountain? No. Robo-brains where used extensively in Washington DC, and the one known as Skynet was a major project at the Sierra Army depot, if there wasn't any evidence that it was produced by another Pre-war company, you might assume they were built at Big Mt. considering all the advance models. Which brings me to my own hypotheses, 1. the Assassin Suit was brought in just like the CSA and reverse engineered to help make the MK II, The Assassin suit was brought in the same way as the robots, stolen technology that was then half hazardly enhanced by Big Mt. engineers, 3. and the most out there of these theories, the Assassin suit was engineered independently of the MK. II, sometime after the X-13 projects were concluded. Maybe this is verging on the border of a straw man argument, but my point remains, you can't post something that currently can not be proven, on a factual encyclopedic article as if it were fact. Don't try to use the "life is too short" argument when we're talking about taking care of a simple mistake and an overstep in authority by a self proclaimed "loremaster" (Troper of the Wastelands 19:39, August 15, 2011 (UTC))

later: Hi Troper. In response to your edit war message. You've obviously given this a lot of thought, and it's clear that you are a fan of the games. I do not come here to make enemies, and I'm sure you're tired of fighting your corner. A couple of things: • Thing the first: Assume good faith (from me, at least). I am not interested in edit wars (see second thing). As I said, I saw information removed from the page with no reason given. I don't check the Talk pages every time I edit unless directed there by a note, as they have often turned into mini-fora. So I restate a point you overlooked in your response: Please give reasons when you make an edit. You could have been a troll for all I knew. • Thing the second: You are right. The info does not belong on the page until confirmed. Since joining this community I've tried to make pages clear and readable to those searching for information. In this instance I should have been more objective. I don't know you (or Tagaziel for that matter), but if you consider this a victory of some kind then I may have been wasting my time typing this. Maybe a little defensive, but I've been on the internet before. And life is too short ^_^. I'll assume good faith that we're both trying to improve the wiki. All the best,--FourWayDiablo 15:38, August 16, 2011 (UTC\ His section from yesterday: Speculation removed Edit I've removed this section and archived it here for reference (or ammo for an edit war). I was originally in favour of it being on the page (I rewrote this section before removing it), but the fact is that this is speculation until confirmed by the devs. A lot can be inferred from the game, but nothing proved in order to meet wiki guidelines. Background It is the first working version of the stealth suit developed in the Big MT X-13 testing facility. Unlike its successor, the Stealth suit Mk II, it is not computerized in any way and functions as a regular suit of armor. --FourWayDiablo 15:53, August 16, 2011 (UTC) Reverted vandalism. Certain degrees of obviousness should be obvious. Tagaziel (call!) 16:33, August 16, 2011 (UTC) Sigh. It seems your reputation for childish behaviour is well-deserved. It was not vandalism and you know it. Your choice of words is purposefully inflammatory. I made an edit and explained my reasons. You are not being objective. I won't revert your edit. Congratulations, you win at the internet. Presented without further comment: Content criteria • All content should relate to the Fallout series of games, its setting or the SPECIAL character system. • All content needs to be accurate. The Vault aims to provide reliable information. In particular, adding speculation and own inventions (fan fiction, fan art etc.) to articles should be avoided. • All content needs to be verifiable. Other editors need to be able to check and verify it. • All content needs to be informative. Information which is only of interest to the writer or to other editors (as opposed to readers) should not be included in articles. • All content needs to be objective. Opinions, gameplay strategy, and "my favourite"-style passages should not be added to articles. Accordingly, guides may only be posted as subpages of one's user page or as a blog. • All content needs to relate to the games as delivered by the developers; user modifications are not covered by this wiki. • All content needs to abide by copyright regulations. Generally, content from other sites should not be copied unless permission has been granted. For example, do not upload magazine scans or add illegally obtained information, so as to avoid potential legal problems. --FourWayDiablo 17:30, August 16, 2011 (UTC) Seeing as the Background information has been added again, I will comment under this topic. The sentence is speculation and has no grounds. If you have found information about the Assassin Suit being created in MT and is the predecessor to the Mk II, please state it below. I do not want to get in the middle of any kind of edit war or the like, so I left the page as is, and would like to discuss this matter civilly. Please respond and discuss. --Living Lifeless 9 22:06, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Now some time too early in the morning for me to have been acting rationally I posted this: This means war! Edit I don't care how long you've worked for this site, you don't follow it's policies and you don't listen too reason, you only accept your own ideas, and your only too happy post them on every corner of this site. If this site is ever going to retain a level of accuracy and professionalism the admins are going to need to uphold their responsibilities to policy like any other leadership in any given organization, and to truth like any other data base ever compiled. I challenge your status as an Administrator, as a self proclaimed "Loremaster" and as a notable and decorated editor. You have abused what little power over this site for too long, it is time that your fiction is struck from every asset of this site! (Troper of the Wastelands 20:20, August 16, 2011 (UTC)) At this time I moved to the wiki's to rant about my "declaration" something I regretted as soon as the first wave of responses flooded the chat, I tried to drop the subject, but for some reason I thought I had to scrape together what pieces of the dialog I could and throw it in a stupid attempt to put an end to it. This is around the time the Chat moderators reported to you and you posted a "warning": "....or do you guys just throw bans at people?" I see you have not learnt from your previous ban with this message and your comments on the assassin suit talk page. Now I am giving you a final warning, if you post such things again instead of dealing with it in a mature and appropriate way (i.e. not attacking another editor personally, instead of there argument), it will lead to ban. Now as for your complaint, you can bring that up for discussion in the Forum:Index. But I will warn you, that if you direct the complaint in a manner that insult the person, instead of bringing there actions to account, you will also face a ban. 20:42, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

meanwhile: Why don't you leave him alone instead of coming to chat and trying to explain your ridiculous points. You can't actually challenge his administratorship as you are not in any place of power to do so. Why don't you make some edits and leave him alone instead of calling him a tyrant or whatever you just slammed into your keyboard. 20:42, August 16, 2011 (UTC) Has Tag actually done anything to you? Burned your house down, robbed your village and/or taken your women? No. he's done his job which is to moderate this wiki. If you don't like that maybe a civil tongue will help, instead of spamming it on a article talk page, waybe you should have said to Tag "Actually, I disagree can we talk about this?" or, had that failed, maybe even just gone to another admin and asked for an impartial judge to lend a hand. Instead, what you did was make yourself look like a trolly anon. There's a reason that Tag has admin powers, maybe you should think about that before you question him? 
Much love.
JaspertheViking :D? 20:48, August 16, 2011 (UTC) Ohh it's back now, okay, here is my comment I had before deletion and etc. The United States was never in any place of power to challenge the British, but that happened, and is now a great power in the world. Above (somewhere) is the sentence that was previously stated in the background section was speculation, however it is currently removed. So I have two things, (1) Trooper we can all tell you're butt hurt over not being heard, but that's the fact of life, the speculation has been removed so you can stop now. (2) There is no reason to be rude on either the Chat, Talk or Comment pages inside this wiki. It makes you look bad, we all do it, but it needs to stop. Problem solved, go home and take a nap. --Living Lifeless 9 20:55, August 16, 2011 (UTC) Thanks but I don't think you should be standing up for me, i've kicked a hornet's nest for standing up for the truth, I don't think you should take the fall with me. I have recently netted a zero percent approval rating on the chat, the speculation has been reposted, I'm not being taken seriously (ironic because I was trying to discredit someone) and I'm receiving death threats from Ghost Avatar. I guess I let it slip: how much of a stubborn jackass I can be some times. I'd like to make amends with the admins, but I'm pretty sure no-one ever forgives on this wiki.(Troper of the Wastelands 22:22, August 16, 2011 (UTC))

Forgiveness isn't really a requirement. It is all about how you handle yourself. If you have a dispute or editorial conflict, you should focus on that and not the person behind it. Attacking or insulting the person will not resolve the issue. Instead you need to address the actual issues and the reasoning behind it, discussing the points within. 22:24, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily standing up with you, I agree that the sentence is speculation, but it is just that you took it too far and angered/annoyed too many people. If you would have calmly contact others about this than it would have been resolved quicker and cleaner. It's a mess for now, but I hope Tag will contact me soon to put an end to whether this was speculation or not. --Living Lifeless 9 22:29, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

And that is the crux of your issue, you tried to "discredit someone", instead of the point of the debate. And don't try to exaggeration things with statements like "death threats from Ghost Avatar". Thing is about wikis, everything is there to see, if people wish to look (even deleted comments from pages). Fabricating false statement will get you no where. It will simply discredit anything else you have to say. 22:34, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

This has all gotten too convoluted, too petty, and too ridiculous! Everyone has gotten to this point of being half informed and carrying on anyways. If you don't think I'm aware of how stupid I look to you, then you obviously will not listen to what I am trying to tell you. To my knowledge Tagaziel has not contacted anyone about this conflict publicly, and appears to not even be involved in it anymore at this point. I had a conflict between Tagaziel and I made the mistake of bringing it into the public instead of contacting him directly, I allowed this conflict to lose base with it's purpose, and it has dragged quit a few people into it that should never have gone through trouble of putting me on trial. I blew it out of proportion by putting an administrator's credibility on trial based on one case of breach in policy. And I've made people enemies out of those who were not a part of this conflict at its start. And I have you eager to ban me. But remember how this started, I attacked someone that Administrators where ready to beat me to the metaphorical floor in his defense and I have no-one on my side. I want to bury this as history, there is no way for me to undo my offenses, but I ask you to help me make sure this flame war ends, I want to let go of this, and I can't if I have to devote my editing energy to defending my actions to someone who doesn't care, and trying to fight off hostilities all while being accused of hostility. I can't just stop fighting while you kick me while I'm down.

Sincerely (Troper of the Wastelands 06:05, August 17, 2011 (UTC))