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Enclave war room map[]

Enclave war room map should be described. What about southwest and East Coast?--dotz 20:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Awww, no world map for F3 yet? NMA has a decent one here: http://www.nma-fallout.com/content.php?page=fo3-maps Dafpants 05:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

WtF Happened to southamerica in Fallout? April 23 2009

I don't think thats been answered. Although i personaly assumed that the nuclear war was a world wide thing, and that no country got through it intact. Purely because if any of them did then realisticly depending on whether they were allied or not they'd either help or invade the ones who didn't. I don't know though, i've only played Fallout 3. Although i do plan on playing Fallout 2 at some point becuase from what i've seen of it, it looks incredible.--Greig91 01:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

(Same guy who asked) nope, the only 2 countryçies that actually sent the bombs to each other were China and USA Mayy 2009

  • (Same guy, again) got it all wrong, it seems. The nuclear war affected only China and USA, but the fallout, well, that was much more worldwide, taking straight from the Vault-dweller survival guide: "In the megaton range, the fireball rises so high that it enters the stratosphere. The stratosphere is dry, and no weather processes exist there to bring fallout down quickly. Small fallout particles will descend over a period of months or years. Such long-delayed fallout has lost most of its hazard by the time it comes down, and will be distributed on a global scale. As yields increase above 100kT, progressively more and more of the total fallout is injected into the stratosphere.", and if we take megaton (Town) as a base for the all bombs, it seems they got thousands of Megaton range bombs. The whole frigging world got itself Effed up.
The nuclear war didn't affect just China and USA. It affected the whole world, not just the fallout. All able countries launched their nukes at each other. See: Fallout world FAQ. Ausir 12:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
(Same guy, once again) Well, I tend to believe my country didn't got into a war, we are the friggin southamerica's Switzerland. BtW: Did Switzerland get into this war? BtW2: can we swear in discussions? the game does often enough, doubt anyone that has played would feel offended =/

Maps[]

I'm sorry but those maps are just wrong. The Bone Yard, for example, is the ruins of L.A. Why does it appear to be located in Mexico? Why are the members of the NORTH CALIFONA Repulic located in western Nevada? Ect ect. Its a nice attempt but most of the areas covered in both Fallout 1 and 2 should be alot closer togather. The map size was hundreds of miles, not thousands.

Huh? The locations on the maps are based on real-world locations, even if the world maps in the game are not 100% accurate. Fallout 1 and 2 covered all of California and parts of the neighbouring states, just like Daesch's map. Ausir 09:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you have Los confused for the Boneyard They're two completely different locations, hence why Los is in Mexico Also, Reno is in Western Nevada, seeing as some of the cities are East of that we can only assume those are in Nevada as well A good references are to use real life Redding real life San Fran and Real life Reno, and you'll see that it actually makes pretty good sense.

Well I know one thing for sure, if "Ronto" is suppose to be Toronto, then its off by about 200km and on the shores of the wrong lake. Torront is on the shores of Lake Ontario, not Lake Huron.69.172.113.205 02:30, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Hey could someone update the maps and add Ronto and Point Lookout? Maybe even Adam's Air Force base, and the Commonwealth too? Oh, and New Vegas is still labeled as 'Las' Vegas. SAmaster01 22:30, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

--

Working on a new map, hopefully when done we can get it posted in place of the old one.

Still a WiP but here it is, should I keep working on it? http://imgur.com/a/5UrLU

Any opinions, ideas, etc. as it progresses? The more eyes, the better. Scissor Shock (talk) 18:33, July 22, 2015 (UTC)

What happened to Australia?[]

^ ^, coz its not like we are enemies of China or USA and we don't even have any nuclear weapons, reactors or anything, reckon we lived?

You got hit by severe nuclear fallout. 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 11:49, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
In our world you don't. But in Fallout's alternate timeline you might have had nuclear weapons and enemies who also did. Ausir(talk) 12:08, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
The Australians were all eaten by horned kangaroos ;) -- Porter21 (talk) 12:13, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

probably nothing i think we're fine no one ever attacks Australia also sniper stopped all the nukes with some help from paul hogan--The cat is evil (talk) 09:26, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Well you're considered a western power and, ideologically at least, you're aligned with the Euro-American nations. It's altogether probable that China or her allies would've lobbed a few spare nukes in your general direction, not out of any malice per se' more sort of dotting the i's and crossing the t's sort of thing.
You do (in our world) have nuclear powered subs and you have the facilities to dock, resupply and repair the US carrier fleets along with their support groups. So yeah, you're a viable target or at least your larger harbours are.
Further inland it would probably slowly devolve into a Mad Max type scenario. No direct hits but the communities would suffer the knock-on effects when the larger (coastal) cities weren't able to resupply and support them.Draxenato 19:02, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

1950's Culture Worldwide?[]

We know that America was in a typical 50's style world of tommorow, but what about other countries? I think they might have been to some degree influenced by the U.S. but did they actually have a similar look ( archiatecture, cars,clothes,etc.) or could they have been more 21st century as far as the look of things? Just curious.

Well, the idea is that the whole world looks like 1950s America imagined it would. For example, China is a rabidly red totalitarian country bent on world domination and fond of brainwashing-type propaganda.--Gothemasticator 20:58, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be cool if Great Britain developed into a sort of steampunk Victorian England, where vault boy wears a top hat and has a handlebar moustache

A British Steampunk Fallout would be a fun change! in the first game, the Canadian soldier looked like he was wearing combat armour similar to the US. This probably means that if not the entire world, countries near the US are like the American 1950's.

We may never know. Unfortunately Fallout is limited to one country so far and it's not likely they will set the game anywhere else. Canada is the other choice I could see. The whole retro futuristic 1950's thing is cool and all but I would like to see a more "modern day" post apocalyptic world. When I play Fallout 3 I feel no connection to the game's world despite living close to DC. 10-22-2010.

I know how ya feel bro! :) Show me a COCA COLA machine! Let me see a burnt Dodge Caliber! The robots, energy weapons, vaults, FEV, Vertibirds and power armor could come from a secret corporation project and the secret projects from the military, so the tech could still be explained. I want to play and be able to feel "this is MY world if it got destroyed". Not some retro future where I don't even know if I would exist. I agree the retro stuff gives Fallout it's uniqueness, but I just want to feel that this is here and not a place that could just as easily be switched out for some alternate scifi setting(not earth) like in Gears of War.

Um... Absolutely not! That would not only completely destroy and rape the essence of Fallout, but it would simply devolve into another boring, generic post-apocalyptic game among the thousands of others out there. Plus, they already tried that with the tactics games, not only did they fail miserably, but the majority of the fanbase absolutely HATED them... --GaussRifle 19:48, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

Pre-Apocalyptic Steampunk seems to be a highly arbitrary inclusion into Fallout. British culture in the 1950s was heavily American influenced anyways, I think an exploration of Fallout based in the UK should look to the culture of the 1960s: James Bond, Dr. Who, The Prisoner, Fireball XL5, The Avengers, etc. Less optimistic than the American world of tomorrow and more intrigue/paranoia based.--OvaltinePatrol 20:15, December 31, 2010 (UTC) If they get rid of doctor who in fallout please kill me i would love to find like a random tardis in the wasteland or a sonic screwdriver

Giant Green Spot[]

The giant Spot which can be seen in Mothership Zeta, what does it mean? a giant radioactiv lake? or only a too heavy lightning effect?

My guess is it's probably either a large radioactive fallout cloud or just a regular forest. Kastera1000 07:33, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
Really? for a regular forest it glows really poisen-like green :P
Have you ever seen an aerial view of a rainforest in southeastern Asia. It bears striking resemblance to the giant green spot you can view on Mothership Zeta. Kastera1000 19:53, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
The three simultaneous hurricanes in the same region in that view of earth seem to bare witness to the effects the Great War had on weather. FinalWish 05:07, February 26, 2011 (UTC)

East Coast Map[]

This map of the east coast is worng. Great Lants is in georgia but in the picture, it's in pennsylvania/ New Jersey.

Actually we don't know where it is. But Atlantic City makes the most sense as it's both on the shores of the ocean and close to the Capital Wasteland, and Atlanta Georgia isn't either of those.XXAntibodyXx 06:05, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the map is old though. Does the user who made it still stay active on the Vault? We can get it changed. --NuclearAnamoly 01:15, October 1, 2011 (UTC) _______________________________________________________________________________________ Does anyone know who the creator of the Google map is? I'd like to ask him to make the map editable and share-able, so that it can be used as a community base map for Fallout communities, allowing for future updates and modification. The creator appears to be anonymous.Bold text Doofmaczemy (talk) 23:03, July 21, 2015 (UTC) doofmaczemy 07/21/2015

USSR/China Allies?[]

Where is the proof that the Soviet Union was bombed for being Chinese Allies? Both in real life and in the fallout storyline The Soviets and Chinese were two communist entities that disliked and distrusted each other, they were not allies and the Soviets were actually friendly with America in the fallout Canon --Kastrenzo 10:19, April 11, 2011 (UTC) -I don't know about the USSR being friendly with the US. We know that they had a diplomat in the US at the time of the Great War, but so did China. America hated COMMUNISM, not just China, China was just the bigger threat, militarily and ecnomically at the time. I wouldn't be suprised however if the United States did lump China and Soviet Russia together, in actual maps used by real schools in the 1950's had the U.S., Europe, and then the 'RED MENACE' (U.S.S.R. and China lumped together.). A modern example would be how Americans lump together all the muslim/middle eastern countries together, and label them as terrorist. I think the U.S.S.R. would have treated eachother like they did in real life. Two countries that happen to be neighbors and communist. I mean, it's not the like the United States is that buddy-buddy with say Mexico, or in the Fallout world, Canada. -SAmaster01

According to the old Sierra Army Depot GNN holodisk, (or M.A.R.Go.T, I don't remember) the last Chinese ambassador got run right out of the country. The Soviets got places in Vaults and made trade deals with public contractors like the construction teams at Seirra Madre. Nitty Tok. 23:50, April 12, 2011 (UTC)
SAmaster, your logic betrays a distinct lack of understanding of history or politics for that matter. America vilified China not because it hated communism, but because it was their political and economical rival. The Soviet Union wasn't; in fact, they apparently had a very strong military alliance, evidenced by the AK-112 military rifles widely used in America. Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 15:13, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Coast-to-coast Map[]

I decided to take some of my free time, and fuse both coasts maps, but before posting it on the page, i wanted to know if it's ok. Raf-Hagane 01:09, July 19, 2011 (UTC)

It's too small, and it doesn't stretch, I cannot read any of the locations. But given the placement, it LOOKS pretty accurate based on the http://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/File:Fallout_Governments.png page. Could you repost a larger image? --70.76.94.217 00:42, July 20, 2011 (UTC)Boldt Corderman

Well, it might be correct if you base it on the real world (I know there are some discrepancies with that in the games), but not on the game world, for example, it shows Broken Hills 'south' of New Reno, when it is north (barely, 5 tiles east, 1 tile north. It also shows vault 15 considerably south of vault 13, when it is straight east of it, just a hair 'north' if anything, but in the same row of tiles, 6 east. It doesn't matter where the locations are in the real world, it matters where they were in the game. They either may not have been in the same place as in our world, due to being in another dimension, or they may have been rebuilt in another location after the war. Real world locations are irrelevant. It it too bad the locations are not more accurate, it looks really nice.

Post-War America Map?[]

It's too small, and it doesn't stretch, I cannot read any of the locations. But given the placement, it LOOKS pretty accurate based on the http://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/File:Fallout_Governments.png page. Could you repost a larger image? --70.76.94.217 00:42, July 20, 2011 (UTC)Boldt Corderman

I'd like to know if a geopolitical map of the entire United States Post-War could be made; y'know, one that would include the cities (even if not entirely canon), national borders (even if not entirely canon), and general terrain. Thanks in advance (Because I'm f****** lazy, that's why)!

Signed, The Mysterious X2.

EDIT: I feel like I'm speaking out of my rear-end here, because no one has taken my request, let alone have otherwise responded to it. P.S., I'll probably say the very same thing on the "Pre-war countries" talk.

EDIT2: Maybe I wasn't clear enough, since two days of no response is saying something in comparison to the previously answered question I had in "Pre-war countries" in less than one: I request a map of the ENTIRE Post-War America, with every bit of location (to the furthest possible zoom inwards) and geopolitical mapping from "Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game" to "Fallout 2" to "Fallout Tactics" to "Fallout Brotherhood of Steel" to "Fallout 2" to "Fallout 3" (with DLCs) to "Fallout New Vegas" (with DLCs) to "Fallout Van Buren" to "Fallout Extreme" to "Fallout Brotherhood of Steel 2" to "Fallout Tactics 2"; a suggestion (gee, aren't I ungrateful enough?) would be to compile the map as an animated GIF (as a "historical" timeline)--I hope I'm not being too needy here!

It's Gone! They Blew It Up[]

Okay, either I'm crazy, something's wrong with my computer, or someone took out everything in this article. Seriously, I went to this page and there was nothing there. What happened? Mentats Addict (talk) 16:50, December 22, 2013 (UTC)

Help me with heightmap?[]

In the aforementioned link, there is a large map of the entire Post-War United States; is there a black-and-white heightmap version of this, by chance? Like for GIMP, or Nom's Map Generator 3b21 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?430856-Map-Generator-2.0&p=14568060&viewfull=1#post14568060) ? Thanks in advance.

P.S., please don't delete this particular topic--this time, I've added the section headline!

P.P.S., I forgot the darn tildes again!

-X2 23:16, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

Untitled[]

May be it could be more objective to didvide in this article Fallout Bible quotation/reference and author's er.. speculations/non-canon ideas?--dotz 18:49, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I deleted this comment at the end of the article:

"-There was a nuclear winter, thats why they stayed in the sealed vaults for many decades -And even in fallout, radiation still kills, it just happens to also mutate a few."

You should either correct the original article or point out errors here in discussion. It did bring up some issues though.

The original article stated that radiation in the fallout universe does not kill, but only produces mutations. Anyone whos stayed in the glow too long and then taken a trip through the wasteland knows this isnt true however, so I changed it saying that radiation occasionally causes mutations instead of death. The fallout bible(most of which I don't think the fallout community considers canon) says that radiation was not the cause of any mutations, but that FEV was responsible for them all, with radiation only affecting the mutation of ghouls in combination with FEV.

What's the consensus on the cause of mutation? I've always prefered radiation for everything but supermutants and the masters pets, which would be in keeping with the setting.

As for the comment on there having been a nuclear winter, I don't remember hearing or reading anything in fallout 1 or 2 confirming this, I always assumed the vault dwellers were taking shelter from fallout, as scientists at the time had no idea how long it would last.

Technically, divergence happened in the 1600s with the abduction of the two characters, and again with 2nd September 1945 with the launching of nukes. 86.136.39.226 19:25, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Just a note on radiation.[]

It depends on the dose. Someone who's been to the Glow and hung around for an hour or two gets such a high does it kills them (as per the 'You've received a high dose of radiation' messages). Other areas have radiation only not in such large doses as the Glow so while you might get a bit sick, it won't kill you.

The differences in dosage create different affects.

Now, did radiation cause Ghouls? My opinion is yes. It's the classic 50's "radiation = mutants" theory. FEV creates your larger super-mutants and the centaurs and things. Straight out radiation in "the right amount" would cause a Ghoul. Perhaps received in different ways - IE: radiated drinking water vs radiation in the atmosphere.

That said, we know Harold likely received some radiation as well as exposure to FEV (on a small scale). Is Harold a Ghoul or a mutant? This is theory 2. Radiation + FEV in the right amounts = Ghouls.

what about Moira Brown she becomes a ghoul when the lone wonderer activates the un-exploded atomic bomb in Megaton this suggests that the heat and resultant radiation of an atomic bomb are the cause of ghoulifcation, there is no suggestion that Moyra is exposed to a FEV.

At this point I'd say it's pretty clear that Ghoulism is caused by radiation alone. (Or at least it's a pretty safe bet with the fact that Carol was Ghoulified without any obvious exposure to FEV (The closest FEV facility being sealed still at that time.)) But it's still all speculation. As for Harold, as evidenced by his appearance in Fallout 3, Harold is special. ;) (Hey, he and Bob finally got FEV to affect plant cells! Now those suckers are super charged and will grow anywhere!) ABCoLD 21:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I am sure i read somewhere that when the vats were broken open in mariposa, this released FEV into the atmosphere, meaning everything everywhere has a small dose of FEV and a latent infection. It could be a combination of this small amount of FEV mutated by radiation which causes growth of ants, mutations into molerats, and ghouls etc. After all, Dr Lekso in "Those" was making ants breathe fire simply by playing with their genetics via research into FEV, he had never gotten hold of any pure samples of FEV to play with only that latent in the environment and the ants, so this is very likely (and i believe sourceable in the fallout bible). Braindigitalis 01:21, April 4, 2010 (UTC) I want to go back to your topic does radiation cause ghoulsyes but interestingly the 1971 Charlton Heston film The Omega man had Ghouls known as the faamily but there ghoulification wasn't caused by radiation but chemical weapons another film with ghoulls in was Neon City there ghoulification is caused by solar activity Owen1983 22:45, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Space Race[]

" In the Fallout world, the Space Race of the 1960s never occurred." It would be good to have some proof from the game to back up statements like this?

Exactly. This forms the base for a lot of discussion about what is "Fallout-y" or not. In the Great War discussion page, it's said that all the bombs were dropped by planes. That's about all the details we get from the higher ups on that note. But, seeing as this is contridicted in both Fallout 2 and VB, can't we at least assume that rocket technology was at least touched upon? Not everything in Fallout has to be put inside this 50's sci-fi context to make it a unique universe.

They're right, y'know. In the original design of Fallout 1 you were supposed to reach the Master's Base with a Flash Gordon-esque rocket, as per Tim Cain's design. Not to mention that WW-II technological development included the start of rocket technology, so it makes no sense to kill it from a 50's-perspective. Kharn

I thought WW2 never happened in the Fallout universe?Dan 09:06, 5 Aug 2005 (CEST)

It did happen. The divergence occured after WW2. Ausir 12:07, 5 Aug 2005 (CEST)

Changed it a bit and erased all the "lack of rockets and space exploration" thing. Ausir 21:06, 7 Aug 2005 (CEST)

In fallout 3, the Museum of Technology puts this one to rest, as it contains a replica of the rocket used and their lunar lander. There was a moon landing (in the 2030's, if I remember right) and a space race, but the delay in science caused by the absence of the semiconductor microchip pushed the date back significantly.-Scorpion0451 20:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

with regards to rockets, is it fair to say that modern real-world nuclear ICBM's (with MIRV'ed multiple warheads, extreme accuracy due to various innovations made possible by integrated circuits, and moderate warhead payload in the range of hundreds of kilotons) were never developed? we know that it's likely most of the bombs were delivered by bombers, and we know that space vehicles were converted into ICBMs with very, very large warheads (more along the lines of Tsar Bomba). But in the games, destruction seems to be light-moderate (supporting the idea that bombers dropped lower-intensity bombs closer to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which may have allowed D.C. to escape the total vaporization it would suffer in mid-Cold War or onward real-world nuclear strikes) or total (something like the Glow remnant of L.A., which could have been blasted by a few space vehicle ICBMs), but nothing in-between.

on the other hand, both semi-canon Van Buren and the official Fallout 3 have orbital strike platforms that can drop weapons ranging from multiple Mini-Nukes or Football Nuke equivalents to full scale city-destroying nuclear warheads, giving MIRV-like capabilities to the world powers. Maybe that's how the nuclear powers gave themselves MIRV-like destructivity in the Fallout universe. --24.231.157.130 02:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Bombs dropped by planes[]

I question the "most of the nuclear weapons delivered in the Great War were bombs dropped by planes." line. As to why, see my explanation in the discussion page of the Great War thread.

In fort Constantine in Fallout 3 there is a computer which has the command "launch ICBM" obviously showing there was nuclear missles

Well, that may be true; but remember, Fort Constantine also has a bomb storage building. I personally think that most countries used planes. We don't know for sure.... -MerchantofDeath 09:59, July 6, 2010 (UTC) Well,does US's Air Defence is Furnishings?

About Arms & Equipment[]

I don't see any reason why non-fictional post-WWII firearms should have been avoided in the series, other than to prevent legal issues surrounding product names (as was the case with Counter-Strike). Practically every video game that has featured non-fictional firearms portrays them incorrectly to some degree in order to maintain game balance, and firearms experts will eternally debate the performance of any weapon amongst themselves. Also, finding WWII (or earlier) weapons is not necessarily an unlikely event; the Tommy Gun and the M3A1 "Grease Gun" SMG are widely used in Fallout 2. The M3A1's description mentions that they are "simple and cheap to manufacture so there are still quite a few still in use." White Agent 21:29, 5 April 2006 (CEST)

The reason is the divergence - around the 1950s, the Fallout world diverged from ours - just read the whole article. And anyway, when talking about canon, Fallout 1 takes precedence, and there, there were very few such weapons. Ausir 19:54, 6 April 2006 (CEST)
But there is no reason why everything that happened post-divergence in the real world should not have happened in the Fallout universe. Arms manufacturers such as Winchester and H&K simply continued to exist post-divergence and made both "divergent" (10mm SMG) and "real" (H&K G11) weapons. I understand the concern that they're probably the only thing that survived post-divergence (aside from any easter eggs), but I don't see how their existance in the Fallout universe is so horribly wrong as the author of the article portrays them. White Agent 20:53, 6 April 2006 (CEST)
Hi, new user, no account yet. I read the article today reacting in the same way White Agent above has done, so I came here to voice my support for the opinion that a historical divergence does not automatically imply that EVERYTHING after divergence need be fundamentally different from our world. It might simply affect, for example, the prevalence of four-leaved clovers... / Per 195.67.20.5
Well, it's not only about how a divergence would work logically in a plausible alternate timeline, it's about how people in the 1950s imagined the future. Ausir 11:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

New problem is, that in van Buren 9mm firearms are present and eg. 9mm autoloader is generic. It was explained by some dev (Sawyer?) with some regional (southwest) specific. Anyway - 10mm arms do not rule. --dotz 21:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

And some Chris taylor statement at NMA interview Jan 18 2008:
The gun choices in FO1 were 90% mine. I felt that weapon technology would have developed differently in the Fallout universe after the split with our timeline, so I tried to make less of the weapons "real-world". The two exceptions (that I can remember) are the Desert Eagle .44 and the 9mm Mauser. The DE was my favorite gun at the time and I had to include it. The 9mm Mauser is an older weapon that I think has a very cool, unique look to it.
Others, like the .223 and the 10mm guns, were based on real-world weapons. (There are guys out there that make pistols that shoot rifle cartridges, like the .223. I applaud their insanity. ^_^)
The 14mm is pure speculation.
And the energy weapons are just plain out fantasy.
My only regret is not including a Colt .45. It fits in the same category as the Mauser. I think it was a question of trying to keep the number of ammo types down.
Nowadays, it's a more interesting question of what weapons to include because more manufacturers pay attention to how their products are used in computer and video games. You might (erm, probably) have to get permission from Glock, for example, to use their likenesses and marks in a game.

I'm killing that whole first paragraph. Unless someone can factually state a reference where either Black Isle or Bethesda said NO REAL WORLD WEAPONS then it's entirely inaccurate. "Divergence" doesn't mean complete removal.

...Just a quick note here on the use of glass metal etc instead of polymers. Polymers and plastics at least in this universe require the use of petroliums and oils to be produced. This would not be possible in a major resource shortage (as happened in the fallout universe) so falling back to reusable, recyclable materials such as glass and alumunium would be the way to go, plastics being in very short supply, no need to even consider 'cutting corners' if the materials simply are not available. 82.20.209.63 18:56, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


from --24.231.157.130 03:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

A lot of the stuff on weapons divergence just plain does not make sense from a gun nut's perspective.

there is some vagueness in the description that can allow for some wiggle room, but many of the "new" ammo types used were introduced in the real world well after The Divergence.

Real-world ammo is described by both it's caliber and length (for example, pre-Divergence 7.62x54mm Russian rifle ammunition used in the Mosin-Nagant), whereas most of the Fallout world ammo is simply described by it's caliber. So, you can argue these calibers are "Fallout calibers" that are simply similar to real world ones, but may have been invented in completely different circumstances.

But, if we're going to make the assumption that ammo of a popular caliber in Fallout is the same as real-world ammo....

.308 Winchester/7.62mmx51 NATO weren't invented until the late 50's when NATO was looking for a common caliber for battle rifle ammunition. It's development was substantially informed by US war experience in Korea.

similarly, 5.56mmx45/.223 Remington was developed in the early 60's and it's final form was substantially affected by early use in Vietnam by US advisers and South Vietnamese troops.

the .44 Magnum was similarly developed in the mid-50's from the .44 Special cartridge... and the .44 cartridges used in lever action rifles were very different and wouldn't fit a "Lincoln's Carbine" or Point Outlook Repeating Rifle without extensive modifications to the rifle.

finally, the 10mm Auto wasn't developed until the early 1980's in the real world - MUCH, much later that most material included from after the Divergence is.

some people complain about the .32 Hunting Rifle/.32 Pistol combo, since normally one shoots a very powerful rifle-caliber round and the other shoots a round designed for small concealed pistols, but simple caliber conversion kits are available and fairly popular, so we can simply assume it's using the anemic pistol caliber in both :P

also, while ideas like remanufacturing FN FAL's as a standard arm for NCR could make sense in real world terms, some of the remanufacturing ideas are fairly silly - the Tommy Gun had a reputation of being a very complicated gun that took extensive resources to make even during the time of WWII, and alternatives like the Grease Gun and Sten gun were quickly deployed due to the amount of resources and time it took to equip troops with the Thompson. they should just admit they included it so the player can tote it around areas like New Reno and look like a gangster :P

if they're going to allow calibers from the 50's and early 60's, though, then I'd like to see a return of some of the heavy weapons from FO2 and FO:T. The M60 is heavily influenced by the WW2 German MG43 so creating a fictional version is perfectly plausible. Recent research has shown that US troops hacked up heavy machine guns into .50 cal BMG sniper rifles as early as Korea (Russian and German troops were using similar calibers for countersniper work even during WWII), so the original idea for the Bozar (as a Barrett Light Fifty clone) could be used if the weapon was fictionalized and make to look more like a product of the World Of Tomorrow. And the M2 Browning has been around since the end of WW2, so there's no Divergence reason not to include it.

if Bethesda or Obsidian really decides to make things awesome, they could include WWII-era antitank rifles that fired explosive shells like the Lahti 20mm, or early 60's grenade launchers like US 40mm kinds. The antitank rifles should be limited to the extremely strong, of course, but it's time they gave some awesome rewards to the Big Guns oriented players for a change :P --24.231.157.130 03:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

No nuclear winter?[]

How so, if the Fallout Bible clearly says (answering the question about "How people outside the vaults survived the bombs")

Some areas of the world were not hit by nukes, and even though many cities promptly went to hell out of starvation and rioting (New Reno), there were still plenty of cubbyholes and old shelters for people to eke out an existence. Survivalists and some isolated military units in Power Armor (and other equipment) also were able to hole up and survive the Nuclear Winter that followed.

Whole this article is a bunch of non-supported theories (as in case with weapons or rockets), not a well developed wiki-style article. Please, guys, make more research before writing stuff here.

That's Fallout Bible 5. In Fallout Bible 6 Chris Avellone said he was wrong and there was no Nuclear Winter in Fallout. Ausir 15:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Some in-game texts mention nuclear winter, such as the vault dweller's survival guide.-accountless avenger

current real-world theories are showing that the "nuclear winter" concern of the 1980's was likely overblown. even during that time period, a full-scale nuclear exchange would have provoked a relative mild nuclear winter compared to the extra-nightmarish scenarios that were put out at the time. There's currently questioning going around as to whether some of the more politically active scientists in nuclear disarmament movements (like Carl Sagan) that spoke on behalf of the theory already knew that contemporary portrayal were a lie but promoted it anyway in an attempt to "do good". --24.231.157.130 03:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Vacuum Tubes[]

I believe it is our future, but our culture reverted to the popular style of the fifties with the development of a much more efficient vacuum tube (quantum vac-tube?) that outperformed the modern transistor.

wasnt really sure were to put this but the vacumm tubes heading seemed correct so here its is,I was reading this article and then i read the combat armour article and it said the combat helmets could incorporate laser/pathfinder systems and i dont they could incorporate such systems because the vacuum tubes would have to be pretty small so there might be something wrong here but dont get angry with me if i have made a mistake just an observation is all:)Jhonteay 20:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

the Vacuum Tube theory as part of the Divergence just really doesn't make sense to anyone with electrical engineering knowledge, but I think it's one of the areas in Fallout fiction where you have to just bite the bullet and have a forced suspension of disbelief.--24.231.157.130 03:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikify please[]

For fuck's sake. This reads like some kind of a forum post. ---

Could you please give some more directed goals on how the article and be “wikified”? --Lodley 22:37, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Political Flipping[]

(Also posted in soviet union, reposted here for added exposure)

It seems the USSR and China have switched roles in the Fallout universe. The USSR seems to have become a "commerce with all, alliance with none" (as John Henry Eden likes to put it) nation, and China is a super-communist menace. Perhaps this may show divergence DURING world war two or even before it, perhaps with Trotsky taking Stalin's place in the USSR which would make a more politically free and civilly free soviet union. Mao's china would seem to be the greater of two communist evils in a Mccarthyist (or similar anti-communist) 1950's America while the USSR will seem a "Nessicary but evil" trading partner like China was for most of the cold war. On a related note, the US seems to be more isolationist then it's 1950's counterpart, it's possible that they never entered WW2 in the first place, it may have ended in a nuclear exchange before they entered the war making Europe in a much weaker state for the century to come.-Accountless Avenger

World War 2 definitely did happen in the Fallout world as it did in ours. One of the games directly mentions Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Chris Avellone also said that it was some time after WW2. Ausir 19:01, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Physics[]

I think it's incorrect to say the effects of a nuclear bomb are necessarily different in the Fallout Universe than in our own. Nuclear bombs do not always create craters. Hasn't anyone ever heard of an air burst?

Especially in a city like Washington, which is mostly stone, brick, and steel, quite a bit of the city would remain even after a nuclear attack, assuming an air burst (there was no crater for Nagasaki or Hiroshima - both air bursts - and the few stone structures in those cities remained more or less intact.) Typically, the tactics for a nuclear weapon deployment (on both sides of the line during the cold war) would call for an air burst, not a ground burst. There aren't any really significant hard targets in D.C. so any intelligent attacker would use an air burst to maximize both casualties and coverage.

As for Ghouls, and radiation, while it is unlikely that such a mutation would occur, it is impossible to say for sure that it wouldn't. After all, we've never had a sample size in the millions on which to study the aftermath of a nuclear attack on a large (millions) city.

Finally, nuclear winter has largely been debunked as a realistic theory, so that's one more area where the Fallout does NOT diverge in regards to the laws of Physics. Arkannis 08:06, 1 JAN 2009 (MST)

It is entirely possible that all that is different is sturdier biology, leading to large scale mutation rather than cancer or death. As for nuclear winter, it has never been conclusively debunked or proved. - A young random wanderer

the problem is that D.C. is logically first or almost first on the list of targets to hit for a nuclear-armed enemy of the US, whether you are in Fallout Universe or the Real Universe. The Chinese would probably dump a few waves of bombers carrying a whole mess of bombs onto the area and plaster it good, and they would probably be carrying enough bombs to not have a problem with choosing both airburst AND ground-fuzed weapons. Before nuclear arms control treaties like the START series got signed, both the Russians and the US in the Real World were known to budget dozens or even 100+ or more ICBM warheads for particularly important targets like the surrounding area and city proper of Denver or St. Petersburg, and those numbers went up even more for critical targets like D.C. or Moscow that had some form of anti-ballistic missile defense to ensure they could properly saturate the area even in the face of interference.

even if you assume the bombers were toting Hiroshima and Nagasaki few dozen kiloton-level bombs, D.C. should be flattened like a pancake from hundreds of A-bombs... but traveling through a D.C. flattened into The Glow 2.0 isn't nearly as interesting as one where the monuments are nearly busted but still standing :P --24.231.157.130 04:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

RE: "DC is logically first or almost first on the list of targets..." - that depends on how well the targeteers have followed game theory and/or the political objectives of the war. If you want to have any chance of a negotiated peace, the one thing you don't do is decapitate the enemy - you have to have someone to negotiate WITH. This is one of the major reasons the first two atomic bombs were NOT dropped on Tokyo during WWII. The allies wanted the leadership, and specifically the emporer, to survive the war to assist in post-war rebuilding. So it doesn't follow that just because the US was in a war, even a nuclear war, that Washington D.C. would be glassed.

What makes you think China wanted to negotiate? They were losing the war and going nuclear was a complete last resort. As such, you *do* want to decapitate leadership. 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 07:56, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

Civil Rights[]

Something that's always bothered me about the Fallout universe is that it's never addressed segregation. I realize that their world isn't an exact split, or alternate history, but the issue of racial quality is still something that every culture has had to deal with, especially the 1950's "Golden Era" of the USA. There's a pretty big hole from 1955 to 1968, but because the culture seems to stagnate right there, I assume that the civil rights movement never happened. So, how is equality explained in Fallout? Clearly racism exists, ghouls are discriminated against and sexism is alive and well. Fallout doesn't address homosexuality as well, even though in our time line, McCarthyism tied homosexuality to communism as one of the "roots of evil".

If anything, the "Red Scare" that exists in the fallout universe would cause further discrimination, but everyone seems pretty PC in the future.

Is there any information in Fallout Bible regarding Civil Rights? --Nux Matrix 05:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that the writers deliberately avoided that subject. It isn't important to the game anyway.

I think that all discrimination was shortly forgotten after the bombs fell due to the fact that all people worked together to survive.--User:S Berger

yeah, I mean, in the aftermath of nuclear war people are just trying to survive, and don't really care about ancestral predjudice. --someone

I've always got the impression that women and minorities had civil rights well before the bombs fell, just not on our timescales or in the manner that it happened in the Real World. you probably had something like the early 60's Civil Rights movement and a feminist movement that were less radical in nature and took longer to accomplish their goals. More "I Have A Dream" and "Rosie the Riveter" (remember the Nuka Break sign?), less bra-immolation or chants of "Burn, Baby, Burn". Fallout presents a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that both blacks and women had more or less equal rights legally by the times the bombs fell, so I don't think that the "Alas, Babylon" theory where everyone abandoned discrimination after the war is correct. There are hints that women still faced a fair degree of 50's-style chauvinism at work even after obtaining legal equality, though.

wisely, the various Fallout teams don't spend too much time on this sort of thing. no matter how you hash out these kinds of issues, someone is going to be offended, and for the most part it doesn't help the storytelling they're trying to do.--24.231.157.130 03:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, this topic really isn't relevant to the fallout universe and this isn't an article that needs any pointless speculation.64.213.222.97 06:32, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Earlier differences[]

In Fallout 3 there is a recording of Lincoln's voice, when in our world the phonograph and wax cylinders weren't invented until 1877, and Lincoln was assassinated in 1865. Minor variations between Fallout's world and ours, or just a discrepancy? -DocGratis- 75.148.199.242 19:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Probably just an error on the part of the devs. Ausir 19:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
This might be early evidence of Bethesda's own take on the Fallout universe also considering their use of the Cowpens flag. But at this point it's completely speculation. ABCoLD 11:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Mutation[]

Ghoul and mutant beats of anykind is result of F.E.V. As Mentiond in F 1-2. A-Bom 's just spred the Virus which as not intented. So If there is mutation in europa or asia it is because of the spread of F.E.V. . PS. F.E.V. Was an experiment at first to stop harmfull effects of Rad. Before Radaway or radx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.186.201.226 ("Ciram") (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Moved from Special:ProblemReports/18726. // Porter21 U | T 15:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
The source of ghoul and animal mutation is something that even the creators of Fallout do not agree on. Some of them say it's radiation, some say it's FEV, some say that it's the mix of both. Ausir 15:24, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Real Life Scenario[]

This section has nothing to do with the Fallout Universe. While interesting this information should be left on Wikipedia or other sites that deal with information that is not Fallout related. So I'm going to delete it. If anyone likes they can feel free to revert and explain the merit of it's inclusion here. ;) ABCoLD 11:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Real Life Scenario[]

This section includes vital information that is useful in comparing the Fallout Universe to the Real World today.

S Berger 20:13, 28 February 2009 (UTC)S Berger

No, it is a work of fiction with no substantiation in fact that is not particularly relevant. None of the information is "vital." Any useful information should be refined and only included if it is directly relevant to the article. Duncanxxxx 20:44, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
It is not a work of fiction. It is a possible scenario that could occur in the world we live in today. The information is based off US government documents that have been declassified and were published during the Cold War. It is relevant by showing the differences and similarities to the Fallout world.S Berger 23:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
It's pointless to include that. That Furry Bastard 00:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
No its not. It gives some insight on the differences and similarities of our world to the fallout world S Berger 01:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
The section of scenario should be shown it could help other peoples of placesNativeAfrican 01:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
It's not required, it's idle speculation and is not bcked up by facts. We aren't a fanfiction wiki. That Furry Bastard 09:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
It is supported by facts. It is supported from declassified government fallout prediction patterns and target values. S Berger 18:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
The onus is on you to show relevance. You haven't done that. Still waiting. Duncanxxxx 19:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
It shows differences and similarities between our world and the fallout worldS Berger 20:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
No, it doesn't. It's just a fictional scenario (still fiction, even if based on declassified docs). You're not showing any comparisons and certainly no comparisons that weren't already addressed. Pare it down. Make direct comparisons. Make it relevant to divergence. Duncanxxxx 21:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

50 Foot Woman[]

Just a quick note for anyone who wants to fix it, the Fifty Foot Woman was transformed by aliens, not a nuclear accident. A better reference is The Amazing Colossal Man, who *was* the result of a freak nuclear accident.

Has it occured to anybody else how completely awesome this would be in game?

Davy Crockett[]

The Davy Crockett is just a nuclear projectile. The round was fired from either an M28 or M29 recoiless rifle. Also, according to the wikipedia article, the weapon was actually deployed from 1961 to 1971 (although, obviously never used, since Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the only two uses of nuclear weapons for non-testing purposes in history), not merely scrapped after testing.Fiddlesoup 05:15, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Physics[]

1. I changed this section to read "Science behaves like it was popularly portrayed in 50's fiction.". In our reality we knew "radiation == bad" before we had the bomb. Products like 'Nuka Cola Quantum' did exist, but not past the early 1930's, because by then we (that is, the public, not just scientists) figured out eating radium killed us. So claiming the fallout universe acts in ways that was "popularly believed" is just wrong and the Nuka Cola reference was two decades to late.

2. 'lift and kick' and 'appealing lavender glow' is a quote from the game is it not? If so, we should quote it properly.

3. The claim that nuclear winter 'likely' never occurred isn't supported by the evidence. Just because something wasn't thought of until (real) 1970 doesn't mean it can't occur. It just means it might not have occurred. It can still occur if:

  • The different physical laws government both realities result in the same event from the same cause.
  • The events are governed by laws that are identical in both realities.

Both of these cases are likely because the realities are far more similar than dissimilar. I.e, despite the wide divergence the differences have made in tech and biology, reality as a whole is largely the same between the realities.

So, given:

  • The physical effects of nuclear explosions (other than radiation effects) are seemingly identical in both universes.
  • Nuclear winter is not a function of radiation, but of the concussive forces which generate and scatter debris.

It seems more likely than not that nuclear winter is possible (and therefore, likely to have occurred) in the fallout universe.

Of course, the real danger is extrapolating anything from these events at all. This is a work of fiction and the true reality is that the physics work however their creaters want them to work.

If someone wants to make a case the other way, fine, but otherwise I think we should remove that particular blurb and replace it with a better example - preferably one that can be made without weasel words like 'likely'. An example of why something occurred the way it was actually portrayed in the game is probably better than speculation about what may or may not have occurred in a dynamic fictional universe.

According to Chris Avellone in the Fallout Bible, there was no nuclear winter. Nor is there any hint in the games nor the timeline that there was one. Ausir 09:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Only Great Winter is the one in 2130, 43 years after the Great War. That Furry Bastard 10:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I propose we cite the Fallout Bible as evidence if we want to include the lack of nuclear winter. Divergent physics as a possible rationalization for a known quantity makes some sense.
Otherwise, let's lose it. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence - a nuclear winter could have occurred and yet show no evidence within the games. Using divergence to suggest a hypothetical scenario - as the article does in fact, if not intent - is fan fiction and makes no sense as an example of divergent physics - there are probably more fitting examples that aren't speculative.
I'm more than happy to do this if there are no objections. Duncanxxxx 14:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I'll add a ref to the Fallout Bible installment it's mentioned in. Ausir 15:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
A lack of living trees in fallout 3 could be shown as evidence of a nuclear winter. Stopping photosynthesis would cause the trees to die like this, as seen in Chernobyl radiation does not outright kill trees for the most part. If you look closely at the landscape smaller plant life is still alive (thick tough grasses etc) so the player wouldnt be dead of suffocation! Braindigitalis 12:30, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

chernobyl[]

Did this ever happen in the Fallout Universe? It could mean why Nuclear power was used so extensively. Fat Man Spoon 23:11, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Why was Oil important?[]

With the obvious problems of trying to explain why a world with functioning Fission Batteries and Microfusion Cells decided to blow itself up over the loss of oil, one of the things I hope Bethesda and Obsidian will play up is how much oil is used outside of the energy sector. Petroleum derivatives are huge in chemical processes and engineering, and oil is used in the Faber process to create artificial fertilizer, which is critical to keeping people fed these days. Without modern biotech to engineer up chemical or bioprocess alternatives like we're presently trying to do in the Real World, having your supply of oil cut off would have very very serious implications for your industrial and agricultural infrastructure - and give the Chinese the same excuses to have a massive war with the US that the Japanese had. And we've never had a indication that the world of Fallout was particularly skilled at biotech in the ways it's skilled with energy weapons and nuclear reactors, FEV aside. --24.231.157.130 04:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to maybe explain that with this article Oil_in_the_World_of_Fallout --Lodley 02:13, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Randian Bust[]

What exactly is a "Randian Bust"? I've been looking around and the only things I get are references to Ayn Rand. I think we should actually find out whatever those giant faces sticking out of the walls are actually called. Dirk Gently 06:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I was curious about that too. Can someone look up in the history who made that statement? Also, are there real world equivalents to these busts? - Redmess 22:05, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Cause of Divergence[]

Just something I've been wondering for a while, but is it possible the divergence was caused due to the same reason the Church in Megaton worships the bomb: because nuclear explosions create multiple new universes? Could the bombs dropped in WWII or any of the bombs tested anytime since then have been the possible cause off the Divergence?

Maybe, maybe not. Its total speculation. It would for example require the univers to be of exactly that kind which produces alternate universes on events. If this is taken true, there would have to be a reasonable theory of why the bombs specifically should have caused this divergence (seeing as a nuke going off is totally insignificant on any scale other than planetary). - Redmess 22:10, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Fallout Tactics and Fallout: BOS[]

Both of these games strongly defy the Fallout world. I don't play either of them much, but Doesn't Fallout: BOS have hard core metal music that shouldn't even exist?

1. It was my understanding that tactics and BOS were both considered un-cannon(confirm/deny)?
2. The worlds are diverged somewhere around the 1950’s, so there should not be any of (our) heavy metal. That does not mean that something similar to heavy metal was not developed at some point. The current(2077) art design and music taste, that harkens back to the 1950’s, could be a more recent fad. For example heavy metal could have been popular in the 2020’s, before there was a “retro” feel to everything.
3. Being strategy games, I haven’t actually played them yet, don’t you take the kind of “sky god” command of everything. So the music might just be for your benefit and not actually in world (again haven’t actually played).
--Lodley 22:14, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Link To The Page[]

Do we really need to link the Divergence page to same page? The "World Of Tomorrow" link brings you right back to Divergence. It doesn't really seem practical to me... JimmyBassatti 15:53, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

Point of Divergence[]

I believe the Point of Divergence (PoD) came much earlier than "just after WW2". AFAIK all we have to support that idea is a one-line remark by Chris Avellone seven years ago. I've seen no other evidence else to support this idea. My theory is the PoD occurred sometime between 1847 (the birth of Thomas Edison) and 1885 and that the PoD centered around Nikolas Tesla.

Real World History[]

Tesla arrived in the US in 1884 with nothing to his name except a glowing letter of recommendation addressed to Thomas Edison who promptly hired him. After proving himself to be a genuine genius Tesla was asked by Edison to improve his company's Direct Current electrical system and was promised $50,000 if he delivered. Tesla worked night and day for a year, earning Edison several patents along the way, and redesigned the company's DC system making radical improvements. When he approached Edison for his promised payment the American laughed in his face refused to pay up and even denied Tesla a paltry $7 per week pay rise. Understandably angry, Tesla resigned and wound up as a manual labourer digging ditches for, ironically enough, the Edison Company.

This is where it gets interesting. It was during this time that Tesla developed the principals for his own Alternating Current system which he took to George Westinghouse, a direct competitor to Edison. It was the start of a long and bitter rivalry between Tesla and Edison. The latter proved to be the more ruthless business man who spent the rest of his life discrediting Tesla and his work. Tesla was as great an altruist as he was a scientist, he developed methods of generating vast amounts of clean limitless energy and transferring it across long distances for no cost. The American business community balked at the idea of not being able to wring as much money as possible from the people and with Edisons help made sure that Tesla was blacklisted from both the scientific mainstream and any significant finance resources.

Long story short, Tesla died alone and penniless in a New York hotel on January 7th 1943, the same day he'd demonstrated the principles of his Teleforce "death ray" to the US War Dept. Despite being officially discredited by both the private and public sectors, the War Dept. with the assitance of the FBI immediately, and illegally, seized all of Tesla's notes and materials, declared them top secret and have suppressed them ever since. It is only recently that Tesla's work and genius has started to receive the mainstream recognition he was denied during his life.

Tesla made pivotal contributions in the fields of robotics, atomic and nuclear theory, electrical generation and distribution as well as computer science.

Fallout History[]

Tesla has much more populist recognition, he made a much bigger impact in Fallout than he did in our world. His name is attached to many more devices and principles. For all intents and purposes he was the Edison of Fallout. Edison himself doesn't get a single mention.

We know that Fallout enjoyed a prolonged period of cheap and safe electrical energy. This was Tesla's goal.

The PoD[]

Something happened that resulted in Tesla 'not' being discredited by the American business and scientific communities. His "War of the Currents" with Edison simply never happened and his place in Fallout history was much more prominent than in ours. Given Edison's complete lack of recognition in Fallout (Lincoln died 12 years before Edison invented his phonograph so "Lincoln's Voice" has no bearing) it's most likely that he never rose to the level of prominence he enjoyed in our world.

So... Tesla went to the US anyway and hooked up with someone else, possibly Westinghouse. A less embittered Tesla might well have been amenable to a compromise on the issues of cheap / free energy. With Tesla's work having more mainstream acceptance, bearing in mind his work in the fields of robotics and computer science, he would've progressed further along these lines.

Conclusion[]

It's altogether probable that Tesla's work in the Fallout universe led to the world we see on our screens today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Draxenato (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Interesting theory, but it is 99% speculation and assumptions based on circumastantial evidence, whereas Chris Avellone's statement is, well, a statement directly from the developer. Nice read, but the PoD is still somewhere around 1950s.
Do consider that the world of Fallout did not enjoy a period of free and cheap energy. Sure, micro fusion cells were cheap and plentiful, but only for the rich who could afford a fusion car. Also, maybe Tesla's technology was rediscovered somewhere after 1950s, hmmm? 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 15:51, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
It's not just Avellone. Bethesda has also stated that the divergence happened after WW2. And, according to J.E. Sawyer, all the stuff like Tesla Armor was based on Tesla's designs confiscacted by the US government after his death. Ausir(talk) 16:52, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
I'm new to wikis so apologies if I'm breaking any protocol here.
I admit I take issue with the "99% speculation" comment, Tesla's work and motivations are well documented, in broad strokes at least. Avellone's one line comment in what was essentially a mailing list digest has nothing else to substantiate it, there's nothing else to back it up. Bethseda, along with everyone else, just refer back to CA's comment in 2002. AFAIK there's zero in-game evidence to support this idea and if you think about it and consider the implications then it simply doesn't make sense.
IMHO Tesla would've compromised had he not been shafted by Edison, that experience soured him to a degree and that was my PoD. Tesla's work would've led to an engineering philosophy of bigger and better, which is what we see in Fallout. The "miniaturisation" and energy efficiency philosophies we see in our world weren't a big deal in theirs, until maybe when the resource wars started. It's probable that it was simply easier to build and run fossil fueled vehicles etc until the oil and tar started to run dry.
At the end of the day the in-game evidence points to a pre-WW2 divergence, purists may scoff but the end result is what you see on the screen when you're in-game —Preceding unsigned comment added by Draxenato (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!
Even if we disregard developer statements, it is equally likely that Tesla enjoyed "late fame" in the Fallout universe as it is that his actual life played out differently. All solid evidence only indicates his work enjoyed public recognition in 2077; there is no proof he already enjoyed fame in his lifetime or at which point his recognition started to grow. Your claim that his work is primarily responsible for the difference in technology between the FO universe and ours is just that, a claim; a couple of devices named after him is not proof that all fusion and robotics technology is based on his work. Even if that claim is true, it still does not necessitate an earlier divergence. -- Porter21 (talk) 18:41, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
The idea of Tesla's "late fame" doesn't explain Edison's complete anonymity in FO, it's almost like their roles were reversed compared to our universe. Draxenato 11:58, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
There are plenty of famous scientists and inventors who aren't mentioned in the Fallout games; you can't really draw conclusions from that, especially considering how scarce information about the pre-war world is in general. -- Porter21 (talk) 12:06, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
The conclusion I can draw is that Tesla's name, influence and work are all still well known enough in 2277 for him to get frequent name checks, Edison doesn't. Einstein's name and reputation survived though. No offence, but don't you think you're splitting hairs here ? Draxenato 14:08, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
No, but I do think you're jumping to conclusions over these things. Tesla is mentioned, Einstein is mentioned, Edison is not - these are the facts. Any meaning you're assigning to these facts is merely speculation. Tesla and his theories are known even in our universe and time, despite the supposed interference by Edison, and there are plenty of other inventors and scientists which are not mentioned in the games; this does not mean all of them did not exist. -- Porter21 (talk) 14:28, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
I take your point that lack of evidence doesn't mean any evidence exists. I guess the point I was aiming at, and apparently failing to hit, was that we have two contemporaries working in the same fields, one of them becomes a part of the scientific mainstream and pop-culture, the other does not. Tesla was widely known in the pre-GW FO world while there's no mention of Edison at all. Don't you think it's a reasonable supposition, based on the in-game evidence at least, that Tesla was simply better known by the 2070's ? If so, then why ?? Was Edison discredited ? Unlikely. It's more likely that Edison simply didn't have the influence he enjoyed in our world. Was Edison even born in FO ? Was it his (let's be honest here) belligerent business practices that were his undoing ? Draxenato 15:54, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Maybe Tesla was better known by 2077 (although I'd still say it's a bit of a stretch to state that) but anything you are deriving from that has no ingame evidence to back it up; it is speculation. There is no ingame evidence about anything concerning Edison's (or Tesla's) actual life, all the points you are making are based upon what you consider possible and/or likely; that's the very definition of speculation. I'm not saying it's not possible (I wouldn't have evidence to back that statement up), but it's certainly not a compelling argument that the divergence occured pre-WW2. -- Porter21 (talk) 16:50, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Regardless, I don't recall Edison being present in our everyday life as much as you make him out to be. 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 12:57, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Computer science - no chips for you![]

Computer science took a radically different path in FO, their development of transistors, integrated circuits and computer chips came much later than in our world. The question is why ?

Our world took the "miniturasation" route to address various problems encountered by early computer scientists. Computers based on vacuum tubes are very difficult to manufacture, they're unreliable and need frequent maintenance, they're also very very slow. The introduction of transistors and computer chips later on, addressed these problems, their invention was a matter of engineering inevitability. The integrated circuit (which later became the silicon chip we know today) was invented on not one but on at least two occasions we know of. Jack Kilby of Texas Instruments and Robert Noyce of Fairchild Semiconductor both developed integrated circuits on a chip independently of each within a six month time period. [1]

The computer scientists of FO would've faced the same practical problems as in our world, but as the computer chip didn't arrive until much later then it's reasonable to assume they found another way of solving them. I'm going with semi-organic technology, specifically the integration and adaption of brain tissue with computer systems.

As evidence I offer the existence of the Robobrain, the organic innards of Protectrons and arguably the development of androids by the Institute.

This next is pure speculation. If using brain tissue as computer circuits solved the problems of speed, reliability and (to an extent) manufacture that could've led computer science down a technological blind alley. Their immediate problems solved there was simply no impetus for the engineers of FO to take the route our world took. Computers in FO are at the same level of popular usage as they were in our world in the 1970s, they remain largely in the domain of government bodies, the military, academia and small businesses.

If brain tissue was used then where did it come from ? We know cloning technology, or at least the precursors to it, existed before the Great War but it wasn't in widespread use, so the only other source for the tissue would be from harvesting, possibly from the bodies of condemned criminals or from people carrying organ donor cards. This would account for their relative scarcity compared to our world. It's only the abundance of materials in our world that makes computers cost effective as entertainment and general purpose devices. If computers are rare then they'll get used for the most mission-critical tasks of the day, much as we saw up until the 1970s. Draxenato 13:52, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Uh, no, the reason the integrated circuit was not developed until 2070s was purely aesthetic choice. Remember, Fallout is inspired by 1950s science fiction and how people thought technology would look back then, so lamps are purely an aesthetic choice. Trying to rationalize it as much as you try to is kind of missing that. 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 08:53, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
Well for me that's part of the fun :) And anyway, isn't rationalising the storyline the point of the Divergence page ? For me, FO3 (can't speak for the others titles) is an immersive "sandbox" world, and simply waving away aspects of that world by saying one of the designers simply thought it might be a good idea, that sort of thing really takes me out of the story. It destroys all form of dramatic tension for me, I mean what else might've been a good idea at the time ? Machine guns firing marshmallows instead of bullets for no other reason than the player's gotten past Lvl-18 ? Like any good fiction, games like FO have to maintain an internal logic and consistency, or else what's the point in any sort of narrative ? In FO3 we're encouraged to get out and explore, a lot of the backstory and info that we pick up along the way doesn't lead to items or XP, it's simply there to add to the storyline and hence the atmosphere of the game / immersive world. Draxenato 12:24, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
First, Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 set the rules, Fallout 3 merely tries to emulate them and fails, simply because there's a lot of "cool stuff" thrown in for the sake of being cool. The BoS, the Enclave and the Supermutants are all jammed in because the lead developer thought they were cool to have in. Tenpenny's Tower? Oh, Fiddler's Green was cool, let's have it in! Superhuman Gambit? Oh, so many silly superheroes in the 1950s, let's put them in! Stores untouched for two hundred years despite being right next to a human settlement? Oh, *handwave*. Etc.
Second, since Fallout 3 does not have an internally consistent gameworld (rather being a funpark with a lot of attractions) trying to rationalize it is pointless, as the developers did not try to rationalize it.
Last, Howard himself stated that they're "just doing what's cool". 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 13:08, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
Well I was hoping we could avoid the sort of elitism that implies if you don't take FO1 and 2 as the gold standards then your opinions aren't valid, IMO it really doesn't help in these sort of discussions. The BoS, Enclave and Supermutants were all integral to the plot of FO3 so I wouldn't say they were "jammed in". Yeah if anyone wanted to nitpick then there's a shedload of inconsistencies, why would a raider attack you with a knife when they're guarding a cache of automatic weapons and ammo, for example. The FO3 game mechanisms may not be internally consistent, see the above raider example, but in broad strokes the world setting and backstory do hang together pretty well. Stuff like the Superhuman Gambit and the Rube Goldberg Machine are just a bit of fun for the developers and (hopefully) the players, they don't impact the overall story and don't take you out of the game.
I really don't give much weight to what the developers say they wanted unless it appears on screen. I mean Trekkies don't take Star Trek:Phase II [2] as canon despite it being created by Gene Roddenberry and being intended as a sequel to the original series. The point being that just because a developer *intended* for something to happen doesn't mean it automatically becomes gospel. They're fallible and just as likely to get things wrong as you or I.Draxenato 13:58, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
Then you are wrong. The author is always right and his word is law, unless it blatantly contradicts himself or earlier works in the series. I really can't understand just how stupid someone has to be to claim that the author can't have creative control over his work.Tagaziel
Try reading what I wrote again, then try reading what you wrote. This might help;

I said - "The point being that just because a developer *intended* for something to happen doesn't mean it automatically becomes gospel. They're fallible and just as likely to get things wrong as you or I." You said - "I really can't understand just how stupid someone has to be to claim that the author can't have creative control over his work." Where exactly did I claim the "author" can't have creative control ? I said they were fallible, they make mistakes, just as you and I do. Conan Doyle killed off Holmes, but then resurrected him. Tolkien did something similar between The Hobbit and Lord Of The Rings and, again, Roddenberry did it with Star Trek:Phase 2 I never claimed they don't have creative control, my point was that they make mistakes. They're not gods. Their words aren't gospel.Draxenato 17:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

When mistakes are about half of your game, they stop being mistakes and start being idiocy. 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 21:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
And no, the fact that these three factions are integral to the plot is irrelevant. I can make a Fallout mod with the Brotherhood in Macedonia fighting Greek Supermutants, but despite that being integral to my mod, it will not make sense in the context of the Fallout world nor be appropriate with it, no matter the explanation.
Ummm, call me Mr Thicky but how can something that you say is integral to the plot also be irrelevant ?Draxenato 16:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
Ahh, I see what you're getting at, because *you* don't regard FO3 as canon, I'm guessing you regard it as just another mod. n'est-ce pas ?Draxenato 16:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
Hah, nice try to edit my post. If you cared to notice, those two sentences were flowing together and formed a complete point. Namely, just because something can be given an explanation doesn't mean it's appropriate for the game or in-character for characters involved. 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 21:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
The Brotherhood never had the ability to project power - it was a local, high tech xenophobic order, which was then blown out of proportion by people wanting kewl stoof in their game and lacked the creativity to come up with something original (or, more likely, were prevented from it by the lead developers).Tagaziel
This would be the same lead developers who's word is gospel ?? Look, over 30 years elapsed between FO2 and FO3, the FO3 plot explained the presence and role of The Brotherhood, these were the words from the lead developers of the franchise, by your own criteria they are writing canon. I'm sorry the franchise isn't going the way you'd like it to, I'm a lifelong fan of the classic Dr Who and these last few years have seen me weep tears of blood, but we have to accept the way things are.Draxenato 16:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
Do you purposefully miss the point? Or do you misinterpret posts on purpose? 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 21:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
Stupid stuff like what I mentioned doesn't take you out of the game? Guess your requirements for "immershun" are pretty low then. 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 14:09, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
"immershun" ? There's no need to be insulting. I appreciate that English isn't your first language but for the sake of clarity of communication it might help to make a bit of an effort.
My requisite conditions, "requirements" doesn't really work in this context, are actually very high. I don't slavishly follow the creators of my favourite franchises as if they were gods, IMO that's a really unhealthy attitude I mean look at the gibbering mess Battlestar Galactica devolved into. Personally I think that while the FO universe, in all its incarnations, is seriously flawed it remains one of the better future/alternative histories in the gaming genre, and with the addition of sites like this and informed fans like yourself then it can only get better.Draxenato 16:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
The fact that numerous OOC elements and stupid crap in Fallout 3 don't take you out of the experience proves otherwise. 11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 21:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Back on topic for a sec... Rationalizing and trying to draw conclusions from an inconsistent gameworld simply doesn't work. Fallout was pretty darn internally consistent. Fallout 2 stuffed a bunch of jokes and cultural references in, and it began to mess with the internally consistent logic (deathclaws). Fallout 3 has abandoned the internal logic altogether, retaining any bits that struck the developers as "cool," adding any new bits that struck the developers as "cool," and omitting or ignoring any bits that didn't strike the developers as "cool."

So, yes, if you're of a mind with the developers, then Fallout 3 is pretty darn cool. That doesn't make it internally consistent, consistent with the other games, or logical enough to scrutinize very closely.

My advice: go with the "cool" and leave off trying to draw conclusions. You'll only get in arguments you can't win (especially with Grizzly).--Gothemasticator 21:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

It is also possible, if you do wish to rationalise it, that the reason there are no microprocessors in the fallout universe was down to fear of nuclear strikes, and fear of EM pulse from these wiping out any electronics. If you watch an advert on a TV in one of the trailers for the corvega car, it says "100% analogue, no micro-electronics", maybe this is a way of ensuring that after a nuclear war, technology would still function and not have its chips fried? We see this in many examples, such as the robco mainframe still functioning after being very close to downtown DC (so long as you power it on first). A better question is, where is this getting its power from?! Braindigitalis 12:45, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

Is there any actual source to the whole "transistors and ICs not invented until 2070" thing? I can think of a few examples contrary to this (NavCom parts and Vault 15 computer parts come to mind just off hand), and would like to know if there's an official citation floating around. If not, it would seem to me a more likely explanation than aesthetics or technological limitation would be the deleterious effects of nuclear EMP on integrated circuits that would accompany the great war. Vacuum Tubes would simply have a higher survival rate following nuclear blasts (barring blast over-pressure), while any transistors or ICs not shielded or rad-hardened would be useless junk. EMP was obviously known to military planners pre-great war, as evidenced by pulse grenades, which would explain vault-tek and other members of the military-industrial complex relying on thermionic devices for equipment that had to survive the war. --Unin (talk) 17:54, November 22, 2015 (UTC)

Aircraft[]

I'm pretty unhappy with the section about the divergence in aircraft development:

- Chinese bombers in Operation: Anchorage: In the article, these bombers are described as appearing "to be a development of the 1933 Soviet Kalinin K-7". I'm sorry, I really doubt that. Look up the K-7 at Wikipedia (there's also a link to another page with drawings, more photographs on the German Wikipedia article) and compare what you read and see there with the nice close-up shot at Fallout Wiki's bomber page. Both aircraft have nothing in common except featuring a twin boom tail. So what? Many other aircraft did, like WW II's P-38 Lightning or P-61 Black Widow. I don't know of any real world aircraft comparable to the Chinese bombers nor any real world heavy strategic bombers featuring twin boom tails at all, though. By the way, I love the thought that American strategic bombers would have looked like Northrop's YB-49 Flying Wing in the Fallout universe... Too sad one couldn't find anything interesting in that regard at Adams AFB!

- The P-80 actually was used by the US Navy at some point: Some P-80A's serverd with the Navy, with one of them being modified for aircraft carrier service (mainly a tail hook, but apparently no folding wings). The Navy also used P-80C's, which were designated TO-1, later TV-1. Eventually, these were used as land based training aircraft. I don't know for sure, but I doubt they had folding wings, which would require much re-design. The T-33, a two-seat training aircraft developed from the P-80 (and very closely resembling it), was also used by the Navy. Those T-33A's were designated TO-2/TV-2 and only used for land-based training. So it can be assumed they also had no folding wings. Finally, Lockheed developed the T2V/T-1 SeaStar, which was a member of the P-80 family. This one was fully navalised and actually had folding wings, but its canopy looked quite different from the original P-80's. I doubt there ever were real P-80's with folding wings like you find them in the game. And last, not least, the P-80 had it's maiden flight in 1944 and was put into service with the USAF in 1945. So, this would have happened around or before the point of the divergence occuring. I'd love to have a developer explain me why the US still used an aircraft design over 130 years old in 2077... ;-)

- The crashed rocket at Vernon Square actually is a Delta IX rocket, obviously. Yeah, looks a lot like an A4b. But the A4 looks like the cliché of a rocket, anyway. :-)

- Helicopters: The paragraph reads that helicopters "were never created in the Fallout universe, and are seemingly nonexistent". I highly doubt that - what about all those Vertibirds? In order to develop a tiltrotor or tiltwing aircraft like the Vertibird, one would need most or all the principles necessary for building a helicopter in the first place. For various reasons, I assume that a tiltrotor/wing aircraft is more complicated to develop and build than a helicopter. Actually, helicopters as we know them today were already built and used during the 1940's! So, there certainly would have been helicopters in the Fallout universe. Perhaps you can't find them in-game, because they were already scavenged or completely destroyed by the time the games take place? You won't find many airplanes, anyway. And as far as the military is concerned, perhaps helicopters were already obsolete in 2077? Because, usually a tiltrotor/wing machine has all the advantages of a common helicopter, but comes with a lot more speed in horizontal flight. Additionally, the prefix "VB-02" suggests there was a VB-01 Vertibird? Well, perhaps those were the Vertibirds from Fallout 2...

- A bit off-topic, but the parts used to build Megaton look like they're from a Lockheed L-1011 TriStar. At least the tail section, which is part of Lucas Simms' house closely resembles the characteristic tail of a TriStar. The real-world L-1011 TriStar was actually a development from our 1970's... Sopyt 22:51, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Alright just to set this right helicopters prototypes were being made in the 1940s they were a project to create a fast and effective way of landing troops while being able to menuvure under Radar and Early AA missiles and if Boeing never brought out the Huey did Boeing make it i'm not sure but if they never brought it out that would explain the lack of Practical helicopters there based off the first helicopters that were "easy" targets for marksmen wanting to kill a pilot and his troops but it still dosent explain why Chemical rockets or Ion fusion was never made in this timeline Ion fusion should be the primary Prupolestion for interstellar air craft

Narrowed down the date...[]

According to the computer terminals in The Pitt, the Wabash Bridge in Pittsburgh was replaced and demolished sometime shortly before the Great War broke out in 2077. However, in our world, that bridge was destroyed in 1948. That narrows the date of the divergence to sometime between August 1945 and 1948. I've added this information to the article, but feel free to remove it if you feel that it's too speculative. Another thing that should be noted, it's often mentioned that it must have occured before the lunar landing in 1969, but in actuality, it had to have occured before 1958, when NASA was formed in our world, as the USSA seems to have taken that role in the Fallout world. One final item of note, the transistor, which seems to be absent from the Fallout world was invented in 1947. Just my two caps worth. 99.21.170.63 12:35, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

The Fallout world could very well have constructed a new Wabash bridge sometime after the Divergence. Also, I don't believe there's any conclusive evidence that NASA was never formed in the Fallout world, just that it isn't around any more. Could have been a short-lived agency. I reverted the article changes.--Gothemasticator 18:15, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Navalized P-80[]

Yeah the naval P-80 isn't a divergence, and quite a few other 1940s fighters look similar to the thing anyway.

The Cultural Revolution and You[]

I'm pretty new to the Fallout universe, but just from my experience playing through Fallout 3, I've noticed a pretty glaring difference from our world that nobody's really put into words: the cultural revolution of the late 50s and 60s.

There were two things that helped that become a reality, being the adoption of the "failed" electric guitar by blues musicians and the subsequent musical off-shoot called rock and roll. The popularity of this new form of music - made all the more impressive by the fewer number of musicians per band - led to the death of "Big Band" music, which is just about the only thing you hear on the radio when traversing the Capitol Wasteland. Furthermore, because it was easier to get a band together, learn the instruments, and get your message out, counter-culture music came about, urging a generation to rebel against the values held by their parents. Without these two things, our world today would be much different, and possibly closer to what is depicted in the Fallout universe.

Now we have to consider why this particular divergence occurred. The simple answer is that, because of the reduced technical efficiency, it's possible the electric guitar was never invented. However, I believe it must have been around even for just a little while, especially when you consider a line spoken by one of Megaton's citizens, referencing other people's "hippie crap." As mentioned above, that means the hippie movement must have been around, however briefly, but certainly enough to get a reputation.

Thus I believe that a significant point of divergence would be when the electric guitar was invented but never caught on. Big band music continued to play, rebellion against society's ethics and morals was still considered taboo, and a small but vocal movement shone brightly before exhausting itself against the walls of conformity. --Jimmy-San 05:25, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Nice theory, but purely fan-fiction. Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 06:18, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Transistor[]

Just based on a forum post at the Beth Forums (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1104056-timeline-split/page__st__20) Just wondering what is the source for the date of the development of the transistor in the FO universe? Thanks. Agent c 22:09, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

The problem is there are at least two types of transistors: field-effect and point-contact. The field-effect transistor was patented by Julius Edgar Lilienfeld in Canada in 1925, in the United States in 1926 and 1928, and by German inventor Oskar Heil in 1934. You will notice these dates are way before the end of WWII (1945) where the Fallout universe supposedly diverged from our own. More over those patents resulted in the invention of the point-contact transistor which were the result of two independent researchers: Bell Labs in 1947 and Compagnie des Freins et Signaux in 1948.--BruceGrubb (talk) 16:24, April 4, 2017 (UTC)

are world and the FO3 world[]

1945 end of WW2 FO universe same

1947 transistor invented FO universe it happened 100 years later

1954 rock and roll became popular FO universe this never happened

1957 the Ford Nucleon concept was just that FO universe using Nuclear power instead of gasoline was developed

1960s space race simmer of love Fo universe there was no space race

late 1970s Videodisks CD's and Cellphones developed FO timeline this never happened

1986 Chernobyl disaster FO universe never happened

1999s growth of the internet FO universe no internet

conclusion the Fallout 2010 would be very different from the RW 2010 --Owen1983 23:35, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Couple of corrections. First off, while there may have not been a space race, their space program did mirror ours in the 60's and 70's - with first (American) in space, and first moon landing happening at basically the same time it did in ours. The main difference was, that while we stopped going to the Moon in the 70's, they continued to do so - and they never moved away from simple multi-stage rockets, while we had the Space Shuttle.

As far as the "Summer of Love" goes, that's an unknown - as is most of the Fallout universe's musical history. For all intents and purposes, the production of music seems to have stopped around the time of divergence, with the only known recordings being from artists that apparently existed in both universes, from 1940-1960. However, it seems that in the Fallout universe, Rock n' Roll never really caught on, much less the multiple genres that grew from it. If we take into account Dean Domino from Fallout New Vegas, it's possible that music simply stagnated - never evolving past the Big Band sounds prior to divergence. Strangely, it seems, the medium that music is stored on, did evolve - presumably being stored on Holotape, as Three Dog doesn't understand what the "Disc" in Disc Jockey refers to.

I think, it's probably safe to assume that the latter case is probably, if not oddly to us, the most likely case. The people of the Fallout universe just stuck with that genre of music, and while there were likely plenty of recordings, by plenty of artists, development resources didn't allow for the creation of "new" songs of that genre to add to the game.

As far as Chernobyl goes - it's not unreasonable to assume that such disasters did happen in the Fallout universe - but the key difference is that while, in the real world, the dangers of such disasters have caused the public to rally against nuclear reactors - such incidences in the Fallout universe just seem to be treated like an oil spill in ours.

By all indications - they did have an internet - the main difference is that there was no apparent "world wide web". There were email and file transfer systems, and servers, there was just no equivalent to the hyper-text transfer protocol (http), that created the foundation of web pages. Most likely this is just a byproduct of creating voice communication, and artificial intelligence - two things we're still working on today - which removes the necessity of a graphic user interface. No need for a GUI, no need for web pages.

Possible edit needed?[]

"Man portable weapons such as light machine guns were seemingly never developed in the Fallout universe..." - Theres one in New Vegas. 64.4.90.46 20:35, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

LMGs are listed under "big guns". Fallout 1 didn't have any, Fallout 2 had the LSW (based off the L86A1 LMG), Fallout Tactics had the Bren & SAW, and Fallout New Vegas has the LMG. This should probably be changed to "with the development of man-portable gatling guns, LMGs became less commonly used as squad support weapons." 216.65.182.66 17:32, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

  • I second that, makes more sense. --Demon971 04:32, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

POV comments on usefulness of caliber[]

"Ammunition calibers that in our timeline were considered useless or impractical, such as the .32 caliber and 10mm, are widely used in the Fallout era, while common ammunition in our timeline, such as 9mm Parabellum, .357 Magnum, 7.62x39mm, .45 ACP, etc are rare or nonexistent." This is a POV statement about 10mm and .32 caliber. The 10mm is considered overpowered and bulky, but not useless. Same with the .32 caliber, it's considered weak, but more compact. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. 216.65.182.66 17:35, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

  • Quite right. In fact, .32 caliber was used for a period of time by Europe and later some police forces but was phased out as other calibers and new firearms were developed. The 10mm (10x25mm AUTO) was also used for a period of time, although brief, by the FBI. They found it coupled with the Glock weapon system to be an amazingly powerful and accurate handgun/caliber but soon realized that many of their smaller agents (women) had difficulty becoming proficient with the rather large sidearm. So the FBI had Smith and Wessen redesign the 10mm into something weaker and more managable by all agents and thus the .40 S&W (10x22mm) was born. The .40 S&W soon become quite popular through it's use in law enforcement and now even some militaries in the world employ small arms that use that caliber. All of this due to one decision made by a FBI executive. In the Fallout universe, no doubt the FBI had different hiring policies and stuck with 10mm for a lengthy service (almost a hundred years) which later trickled into the military and civilian circles and became a common place caliber. Hence why there is no .40 S&W in the Fallout universe (and I hope to God there won't be). Sadly, the 10mm was appraised by many as a very useful caliber but due to it's larger cartridge and immense power it requires a stronger individual with larger hands to use proficiently. --Demon971 04:27, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

New games bias?[]

While I think this article is good overall, the examples seem heavily biased towards Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I understand that the higher quality graphics make some small things stand out in those games, but a lot of the major examples originated in the first two games. A balance between the games would be nice.

Plastic[]

I'm not sure a lack of plastic is really a divergence. I think plastic is manufactured from oil. Oil scarcity will naturally lead to a reduction in plastic usage. --84.203.104.118 01:30, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

There is plastic in fallout, we've had plastic since the early nineteen hundreds, if not earlier. Power armour, for example, utilizes plastics and ceramics. I shall have to rectify thisAryeonosWhat!? 19:26, February 16, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the first poster, that Plastic isnt that much of a divergence. It has more to do with a lack of Oil. Timeoin 16:31, March 13, 2011 (UTC)
It should be mention that real early plastic (such as Parkesine) was made with cellulose treated with nitric acid from 1856 on. Later plastic were made from coal-tar rather then oil; the shift to oil happened because it was far cheaper to use it rather then coal tar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BruceGrubb (talkcontribs) 16:58, April 4, 2017 (UTC). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!
In world where oil was expensive the coal-tar or cellulose method could be used to make plastic.--BruceGrubb (talk) 22:01, February 26, 2018 (UTC)

Divergence timeline[]

After reading the article it states that the Divergence happened sometime after 1945, would that not now be 1918 since the launch of FNV and the addition of Sunset Sarsaparilla to the universe, which was launched in 1918. ☣Avatar☣ 03:26, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

  • For all we know, the universe had been seperate the whole time but ran parallel (siamese-twin) for the majority of events. There'd be subtle miniscule differences up until around 1945 where the divergence or tangent began and all the notable deviations in comparable histories. My belief is that the first nuclear bomb (Trinity) was detonated in both universes at the same time, not only splitting atoms but splitting universes as well, creating what we know as Fallout. This is however my own imaginative way of splicing quantum physics with fiction. :) --Demon971 04:11, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
I generally just accept it to be a fictional brand like in most media, which could have conceivably existed in our universe, thereby not necessarily reflecting the divergence of the timelines. --GaussRifle 20:18, June 7, 2011 (UTC)

Nuclear Missiles[]

I don't think it is entirely correct to think that ICBMs and other long range nuclear payload missiles weren't developed to a large extent. For one, orbital bombardment satellites seemed to be in moderate development by the time of the great war, there are nuclear launch silos - without missiles, but that doesn't mean the weren't launched. In fallout 3 there are a number of "Launch Codes", which refer to missiles. In Fallout 1, the West Tek building was directly hit, indicating a targeted strike. In Fallout tactics you use a nuclear warhead to open a vault door. In New vegas the Lost Hills bunkers have large amounts of ECMs to prevent detection from missiles and satellites that would guide them. I believe that the large amounts of bombs would be deployed for a sort of "Nuclear Carpet Bombing", but the missiles would be used for targeted strikes against key targets and bunkers. Your thoughts?AryeonosWhat!? 19:58, February 16, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly correct, Aryeonos! I think the Nuclear weapons section is greatly flawed. No doubt there was at least an equal amount of silo and satelite launched ICBMs to warplane dropped bombs. New Vegas is the best example, as it's mentioned that 77 nukes were launched at the city. New Vegas would be a low priority target, so it would be reasonable to imagine at least double or more nukes were launched/dropped on the larger cities. Since the pre-war world of Fallout was still stuck in the Nuclear Age for about a century past our own Nuclear Age, it's even more conceivable that they had even more methods (though some may seem archaic to us) of delivering nuclear warheads. The "Fatman" Infantry Nuclear Mortar that launches "Mini-Nuke" low yield nuclear bombs is an example of another of their methods. It was an explored option in our world (though not shoulder mounted and much larger) but was quickly discarded by the military community for more conventional infantry support weaponry. Likewise, many things that were only scrutinized ideas in our time were made reality in the history of Fallout. As such, if so many nuclear weapons (perhaps many hundreds) of many different designs and methods were used on the cities, industrial complexes and military installations of the United States of America, how come there has been relatively minimal damage (in respect to their destructive power)? I believe the best way to explain this is that there were also many nuclear weapon defences. Why haven't we heard much about these? Likely because if there was anything more secretive than the nuclear or energy weapons being developed, it would be their counter-weaponry defences. If an enemy knew how they operated they could find a way to make their weapons bypass those defences. Anyway, I'm kind of rambling on here. I think there needs to be more thought put into this section as it's quite an important detail in relation to the Great War and pre-Great War arms race. --Demon971 03:56, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I think the evidence points towards a more obvious answer.

Many times nuclear devices were mentioned, they were 4 megaton, 600 kT, 2 megatonne nuclear payloads. Now, bearing in mind by the '80s Russia developed a 50 megatonne bomb, and count in the longer running warfare, and the idea that "more is more"...

You get what the main difference between the worlds are; more is more. More is more is the basis of the divergence; More robots to do as you want, more weapons, more business, more construction, etc. And you get more nuclear warheads, instead of better. Fallout has an incredibly quick nuclear summer & winter, so it must mean that the nuclear warheads launched were incredibly small, but many of them. There must have had many nuclear warheads firing at targets; I would predict hundreds at major cities (also, I count NV as a major city, but most of it was destroyed, House just protected his casinos.

In our timeline, the USSR made larger bombs and nuclear warheads with the plans to hit each city with just a few, while the USA made mostly sub-2MT warheads, with the intention of hitting each city with a dozen or so. Since the USSR did not become a superpower in the Fallout timeline, and since China lagged behind the USA in nuclear weapon production in our timeline, it's not improbable that in the Fallout timeline the USA continued it's policy of relatively small nuclear warheads in MIRVs and when China jumped in they copied the USA, so they could catch up quickly on "number of nukes". --Unknown

In the case of the strip, while 77 nukes were launched at the city, it's important to note that the mentioning document doesn't say "at once";but rather, "on the day". It's also important to keep in mind that while Vegas wouldn't be a tactically relevant target, it would certainly be an idealistic one. What other city would embody all the proclaimed "ills" of capitalism and excess more than Las Vegas? So, with that in mind - I'd like to propose my own theory.

In the beginning, Vegas was only targeted with enough nukes to wipe the city off the map. While not a tactical target, the Chinese felt it was the embodiment of Capitalism - an affront to everything they feel is right and good, and thus felt it was especially important to destroy it. When the first attack was ineffective, thanks to Mr. House and his Lucky 38, they launched more, and continued to do so - possibly upping the number as each successive attack failed. Eventually, they either succumbed to the attacks against them, or simply ran out of ordinance.

This seems likely, as the artwork - at least in the newer games (Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas) - doesn't seem to support the idea of an excessively high number of attacks. The actual number of impact locations are relatively few - which seems to indicate direct, single warhead attacks against specific targets, rather than carpet bombing or similar methods. Keep in mind, that we're not just seeing the results of nuclear war, but also some odd 200 years of neglect. And that's not including whatever damage has resulted from several factions fighting among themselves, and general anarchy.

Hell, the highest levels of radiation in the game, are mostly due to the extremely poor methods of handling radioactive waste before the war. Digital Utopia (talk) 22:51, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

Orbital Weapons[]

Under the orbital weapons section, should there be a mention of the "High Water Trousers" missile platform that can be used in Fallout 3? Zac hemker 15:43, May 28, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe. ЙураYuriKaslov - Sig image 15:50, May 28, 2011 (UTC)

Physics different or somebody not paying attention?[]

The article states that the physics of the Falloutverse are different because radiation causes mutations like the giant insects and ghouls, but the game clearly states that these are the result of the FEV virus and it's various mutations. Radiation in the Fallout universe usually just kills you, though radiation treatment technology is advanced because in the pre-war times nuclear power was so prevalent - I imagine every auto mechanic had plenty of Rad-X and Radaway in their toolbox.

Actually, ghouls and insects are created by radiation, Super Mutants are created by the F.E.V virus. Would it be so hard to look at each creatures page for this info before you post stupid comments? Thanks. --Wiseman of the Wastes 22:24, July 7, 2011 (UTC)

Imperialism[]

What about some nations that were colonized by European powers, such as Rhodesia, French West Africa, the Belgian Congo or India? If the divergence was in 1945, then what became of these nations? FPN Reaper 19:36, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

That would be interesting to find out. Unfortunately, it's probably considered too insignificant to answer. --NuclearAnamoly 00:59, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

Size/Scale differences[]

I don't really think that size/scale comparisons between what we see in game, and the real-world equivalent should be considered among the differences in divergence. Talking specifically about the "compressed" nature of The Mall, and possibly even the Capitol Building itself. The simple fact of the matter is that the entire area is compressed - mostly for gameplay reasons, considering our method of transportation (i.e. walking/running). For example, in the real world - it would take about 12 hours to walk from Germantown, MD to Farifax, VA. Or, for a New Vegas comparison - it would take almost 4 hours to jog (at 5 mph) from Goodsprings, NV to Primm, NV. Digital Utopia (talk) 05:57, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

Well, obviously most of the things mentioned as divergent in the article are intended as a parody of the parody, so to speak. Not even the most idiotic fanboy could seriously list apparent differences like declarations of war or building or city layouts that are clearly due to gameplay pragmatism, oversights, ignorance or lack of research by the designers as intentional, especially considering how notoriously buggy and unfinished all of their games are. --92.202.42.108 01:48, July 27, 2015 (UTC)

Bonnie and Clyde[]

It may be possible that the infamous couple may be a key to resolving an earlier divergence. With neither being born or killed in the Fallout Universe (they have an antithetical replacement with Vikki and Vance), the Divergence could have taken place as early as 1909. What do you guys think? -Sunsailor

Possibly, however. Sometimes they have to change the name to avoid copyright issues/getting sued or even worse. leaving only a reference for us to think/guess about who's this and that. ------Cassie Ultimate Anime Loving Weeaboo. 00:32, June 6, 2015 (UTC)
1909 is most certainly impossible - World War II is confirmed to have happened in the Fallout timeline. Last time I checked, WWII definitely did not start anywhere near that year - I better recall 1939. 69.247.6.120 01:58, June 6, 2015 (UTC)
True, but Bonnie and Clyde are historical figures, and public figures at that; they're not copyrights so fear of lawsuit really isn't a legitimate concern.
I came across this while I was researching for a Mod I was thinking about making that would add the famous Remington Model 8 Rifle into the game. The Model 8 got national recognition as it was the gun that killed the pair of Bank Robbers in the hands of Texas Ranger Frank Hamer. It also had technical relevance as it was the first firearm ever made with a rotating bolt locking mechanism -- which is entirely responsible for the firing mechanisms behind the M1 Garand, the FN FAL, the AK-47, and the M16A1, all of which are represented in the game.
Further, John Browning's creations are featured HEAVILY in the Fallout game, especially New Vegas. The .45 Auto Pistol, the Battle Rifle, the Lever-action Shotgun, the Brush Rifle, the Grenade Rifle and the Automatic Rifle are all essentially equivalents of his creations in the Colt M1911, the Mark 1 Garand Rifle, the Model 1887 Winchester Shotgun, the Winchester Model 1886 Rifle, the M69 Grenade Launcher (were based off of his drawings not actually created by Browning), and the Browning Automatic Rifle, and with the mural shown by Bethesda on Saturday, we know the BAR, and the M1G are firmly apart of the Lore as they're both carried in the painting that's in the Hall at Concord in Fallout 4.
Also, divergence doesn't exactly mean where they reach the point of being completely dissimilar, but where they begin to have differences. There was a post about diverging on the Timeline's talk page discussing Lincoln's Recording Device from Fallout 3, which could set the Diverge back as far as the Civil War in 1865 -- Five or more years before the technology was developed in our time to playback such a recording.
I'm going to cut myself off before I go and climb too far down the rabbit hole. But I found these points interesting, and possibly relevant. - Sunsailor

Use of wood in military firearms[]

A difference between the Fallout universe and ours that always stood out to me in Fallout 3 and NV is that many of the military weapons (R-91 Assault Rifle, Combat Shotgun, Gauss Rifle, Service Rifle, LMG, Riot Shotgun, and Anti-Materiel Rifle) have wooden stocks, grips, and handguards/barrel shrouds, which is uncommon with U.S. military weapons post-Vietnam era in our universe. The use of wood is probably just an aesthetic choice by the devs to give the weapons a "retro" feel; though one could try and link it to the oil shortage and oil/petroleum being used in plastics and other synthetic materials. Wasn't sure if this was worth adding to the article, feel free to add it if it is. --24.63.83.52 06:18, July 6, 2015 (UTC)

Can we get a citation on Reagan? I don't remember that at all.

Fallout 4 prewar information[]

The diary on Emogene Cabot's computer talks about their being BBS services, the real world precursor the internet, in 1968 while in the real world the earliest versions of this was 1975. Also the creation of the commonwealth system is confirmed to have happened in 1969 on several historical plaques around Boston.

There was NO Divergence in the 20th century[]

There was no Divergence in the 20th century

Never is this seen in all of fallout other than in rudimentary character births or minor events. Otherwise the timeline of the 20th century...the whole thing...is exactly as we know it in the real world.

The idea of divergence is unfortunate, and I'm not sure how it took hold with no real evidence. It weakens fallout as a cautionary take of the future to pretend it couldn't happen without our own past being different.

The only argument I've heard AT ALL with any depth is the 1950s style in the future. But I don't see how us adapting midcentury modernist style (which is already happening in the interior design world I can tell you) is somehow a link to a Divergent PAST. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.198.47 (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

In some areas there is an obvious divergence - Fallout computers usually are much more primitive (no widespread use of laptops or cell phones). The evidence is spread all over the game, really. Perhaps the article could use soem citations. But please don't remove large parts while we are mostly concerned with getting Fallout 4 data out. In my opinion the article could use perhaps some polish, but ot the basics right. --Alfwyn (talk) 09:39, December 6, 2015 (UTC)
Some hard evidence for the divergence can be found in FO4 on a plaque in the Massachusetts State House: "The state government used this building continuously until the formation of the Thirteen Commonwealths in 1969." --Alfwyn (talk) 12:37, December 31, 2015 (UTC)
In our world, the Transistor was thought up before 1925, first made in 1947. Transistors in the Fallout universe were made in 2067. Their world was guaranteed different from ours in the 20th century. Seriously, you should just read the article you're putting down for all this "proof" and "evidence". 69.145.67.34

No massive inflation[]

While it may look that way and probably was intended to seem like it, thanks to the way exponential effects (like inflation) happen, it need not be that bad (apart from oil). Going from a car price of $40k today, the $200k would only be 2.5% inflation per year, a very common level. Prices for magazines and similar have a slightly higher rise but still within manageable levels (around 3.5%). Only the price of gasoline is extreme, but that can be due to the scarcity of this particular resource. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.232.166.224 (talkcontribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Transistor's invention has been retconned to around 2023[]

Jack Cabot's terminal states that the transistor has been around since at least 2023. The terminal is found in Cabot House 2nd floor. Screens: http://imgur.com/a/HjwZA Cc-8826 (talk) 15:18, August 20, 2016 (UTC)

That entry doesn't specify whether transistors are a new technology or simply a newer model. Great Mara (talk) 15:26, August 20, 2016 (UTC)

Transistors and 2067[]

I've been trying to find a source for this statement: "The historical details of the divergence and the exact moment when it occurred are unknown. What is known is that it happened at some point after 1945. One of the likely causes was the fact that the transistor wasn't invented in 1947, and instead was 120 years later, in 2067."

First off, I cannot find a source that says the transistor was invented in the Fallout universe in 2067, ten years before the Great War. The 2067 date was first added in November 2014 by an unregistered user.

Secondly, I cannot find a source that says the transistor was not invented in 1947. This was added in January 2009 by another unregistered user.

The original sentence when this page was created in 2005 says: "Consequently, miniaturization of computers was never necessary and the transistor was never invented." I cannot find a source that says the transistor was never invented in Fallout or if it was delayed at all from 1947.

Following the reference links goes around in a circle where pages claims that the transistor was not invented in Fallout while showing examples of transistors being present and widespread enough in miniaturized electronics found throughout the world.

There's only a vague mention in Fallout Bible 8 with vacuum tubes: "so anyway, you get giant radioactive monsters, pulp science with lasers, blasters, vacuum tubes, big expensive cars with fins, Art Deco architecture, robots with brains in domes atop their heads, lots of tape reel computer machines, the whole 'atomic horror' feel, and it explains the artistic style of the interface."

The topic above even says that transistors were available in 2023 according to the Cabot House terminal entries.

Does anybody have a reputable source where it says that transistors were not invented or delayed in Fallout?

UpgradeTech (talk) 00:34, September 28, 2016 (UTC)

Divergence and Firearm Laws[]

"The March of 2062 edition of pre-war magazine Milsurp Review advertises the full-auto CZ-53 as "legal" as well as featuring several Tommy Guns. Additionally untouched pre-war civilian installations frequently contain pre-war automatic firearms. In our timeline fully automatic firearms were effectively banned by the 1934 National Firearms Act and officially banned by the 1986 Hughes Amendment."

I question the necessity/correctness of this addition and would like to bring it to discussion. The 1986 Hughes Amendment is, in my opinion, irrelevant as the split likely occurred decades before 1986, likely in the 50s. Following the National Firearms Act, fully automatic firearms were not too difficult to come by and were still being produced with a mind for the civilian market (look no further than the American 180 for an example of this), meaning that civilian ownership of fully automatic weapons in the fallout universe would hardly be surprising in the pre-War era, especially when taking into account the Red Scare that was going on at the time.

As for the evidence presented by the Milsurp review, by 2062, any old Military Surplus Thompson submachineguns would certainly qualify as curios and relics at the very least, making ownership of them as a civillian not too difficult. Additionally, to the best of my knowledge, currently within the US one can legally own a minigun or gatling gun etc. (unless the state one resides in forbids it) as each barrel is considered a separate firearm (I could be wrong about that, read it a while ago).

What it really comes down to, however, given the article this is in, is whether or not the fully automatic weapons one can find in untouched civilian buildings is notably different from a US where even now one can own fully automatic weapons legally. Richie9999 (talk) 23:52, July 12, 2017 (UTC)

I just looked it up again to be sure, but manually operated multi-barrels weapons, ie a real gatling gun that operates with a crank, are exempt from NFA. They're classified as (really damn expensive) rifles. It's when you add an automatic operating system, ie electrically driven barrels, that the weapon becomes classified as NFA restricted. That means irl, all weapons like that produced before Hughes are unrestricted. There were exactly 11 of them made and in the civilian market. Jesse Ventura seems to own one. The Gunny  UserGunny chevrons 23:59, July 12, 2017 (UTC)

Divergences before WWII[]

Oxhorn has done a video that shows shows divergences well before WWII. These places, people and events don't exist in our timeline:

  • Cabot house: erected 1711
  • Vikki and Vance: started two days before Bonnie and Clyde in 1932
  • Shamrock Taphouse: Fallout official strategy guide states it was built in 1787
  • Capital Post: first printed 1877; in OTL it is known as the Washington Post which was first printed in 1877.
  • Schoelt propane company: founded 1895; propane as a viable fuel source wasn't discovered until 1910 by Walter O. Snelling of the U.S. Bureau of Mines.

Then there are the post WWII convergences:

  • Music: many of the songs were written/performed in the 1950s-1960s. "Take me home country road" (Fallout 76) was written in 1971.
  • Guns: several of the guns are based on designs from the 1960s.

--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:45, July 3, 2018 (UTC)

Regarding "football" vs. "American football"[]

I ask that this doesn't devolve into another edit war, and as such, I've made an edit to the page hoping to reach a compromise: aside from miscellaneous clean-up, I also combined baseball and football into a single Sports section, with two subsections. I named the football section simply "Football," but kept the wording of "American football diverged in..." within the prose. The name is concise and it further explains the subject (naming American football) in the section itself. AllYourFavorites! (talk) 02:55, June 30, 2020 (UTC)

I can live with that. --DankalorYT 03:01, June 30, 2020 (UTC)

Those two maps[]

There is no reason to not include those maps. They are 100% accurate to in game information, and further elaboration is in their summaries.--Ant2242 (talk) 22:33, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

While there is in game information that supports these maps, I would argue they are not accurate enough to use on the wiki.
With the political map, many of these locations are mentioned with little context as to what level of control the factions have over a given area and where. On the NCR side, it's not made clear how big an NCR presence there is in Baja (such as what settlements if any are in Baja, how much territory around them do they control, etc.), where their northern border is, or how far West they've expanded outside the Mojave. On the Legion side, having their entire eastern border fade out when we don't know how big their presence in New Mexico and Colorado is misleading. Above all, it gives the impression that we have better knowledge of the two factions borders than we actually do.
With the geographic map, that's misleading for different reasons. Fallout (in every game in the series) rarely has its locations 1:1 with their real world equivalents, and devs from both Interplay, Bethesda, and Obsidian have moved locations to fit their vision of the game. While I understand most of the locations are based on the games, having a map reliant on real world locations and distances to show a region could be misleading to readers. Aiden4017 (talk) 06:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Everything on these maps came directly from the games. The fadeout is because we don't know if every faction post war decided to adhere to the treaty of Westphalia, ie declared boarders. The NCR has had a presence in Baja since Chief Hanlon was young, it could extend to the entirety of Baja, but all we know is that they are there, and there was a settlement at Anza-Borego. What we know of their stated territory is there. For the Legion again what's stated in game is what's there. So unless editors start to arbitrarily disagree with what the developers added in the games, it's accurate.
Developers do not make game maps a 1:1 to reality. They make game maps to be fun, and full of places to explore. Not to have more then half the map being empty desert. The locations that the developers *did* build on (LA, SF, Bakersfield) are where they should be, as is any and all locations that existed before divergence. There is nothing that is misleading.--Ant2242 (talk) 14:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of the intent, the fade out gives the impression we do know where their borders are. Having a presence somewhere and controlling it are two different things, and the fade out does not change that. One Pine and Bullhead City are never shown on a map, so having them in their real locations could mislead a reader on what we know about them - acting like we know where something is, when we are never told where it is, gives an impression that we know more about them than we actually do. Aiden4017 (talk) 01:54, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

If there was a disclaimer saying that the borders and locations were approximations on the images themselves, I'd be less concerned about including them. But since there isn't, they're going to be taken at face value, which will be misleading. Aiden4017 (talk) 01:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I think to remedy the maps being taken at face value, it could be clearly stated in the thumbnail they'll be kept in that these are extrapolations. "Information of border area and placement of mentioned-only locations is based on statements of areas of influence under each faction." Devastating DaveZIP ZAP RAP 08:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Maps[]

User Ant2242 New California Political
User Ant2242 West Coast
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