Talk:Enclave Squad Sigma

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these guys are pushovers, i sneaked up on them, downed a few quantums and used my dart gun to cripple the entire squad, ten taking advantage of their reduced speed i planted plasma mines. also if you catch them in a cluster, cripple them and bombard them with plasma grenades. that kills them pretty quickly, even on hard difficulty" as long as you have the proper skills. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaw272 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Psh, one shot with the tesla cannon killed them all except the leader. He was smart enough to run away. 70.179.110.237 01:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Just a little something...

The symbol for 'sigma' looks like an 'E'. E for Enclave... *gasp*

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Greek_uc_sigma.svg/200px-Greek_uc_sigma.svg.png

Just a thought I had in Physics class.

Spoon ^{Leave me a freakin' message} 17:51, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Whoa... didn't expect that link to turn into a picture... Spoon ^{Leave me a freakin' message} 17:53, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

I cropped the E out of the Enclave symbol, would it be possible to use this as the logo? Nitty ^Tok. 23:58, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Easy Sigma kill

An easy way to kill E.S.S. is to equip a fat man and wait until the leader faces you ( you have to be facing the sign ) and then...boom.

Just bring Fakwes. They were coming through the hallway and fawkes massacred them while I was looking around looting stuff. I didn't realise they were there for a few minutes.

About 6 to 8 Nuka-Grenades via a V.A.T.S. did the trick for me (on Very Hard difficulty). They came out as a group when the alarm sounded on the bottom floor of the crawler. That set them up as sitting ducks for the grenade attack.

Growl-tiger 00:44, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

One can carry the Alien Blaster

There are some reports that the Alien Blaster cannot be found in the locked Armoury storage box.If the Alien Blaster cannot be found in the locked Ammo box it can be found in the inventory of one of the Sigma Squad along with additional Alien ammo cells. (confirmed over many game plays).--1000HrsFallout3 (talk) 08:48, April 22, 2013 (UTC)

Antagonist

Due to a recent edit, this squad was considered to be the antagonist of Broken Steel. While they are obviously an antagonist, are they really the antagonist? They are neither the final obstacle of the add-on nor are they any more of an obstacle than the Reavers, Sentry bots, and deathclaws that precede and follow them. Further, they have exactly zero impact on the actual story and have no character on their own. They are basically a bump on the road, one of hundreds. The page itself now even lists the dozens of ways they're completely unlike the antagonists of other games. Maybe they're not like them, because they're not one of them? Due to disagreements in chat however, I've been asked to bring this discussion here before doing anything. Thank you. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 01:18, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

I would have to agree. I do not consider them an antagonist. They are merely a stronger version of a base enclave enemy. I even bet they use character templates. The Gunny   01:29, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

I'm also in agreement. Gameplay-wise they are not a main antagonist. They just appear there and are defeated as the LW progresses through. The are quite insignificant beyond the fact that they are named and are stronger than average. --Skire (talk) 01:34, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

Kind of a weird one. They do have lore behind them, and are considered a mini-boss encounter of sorts, which would warrant the same recognition as other unique enemies sent against the PC with lore behind them. But, at the same time, their portrayal in the game itself, is so insignificant, that one barely reflects on the encounter - even right after defeating them. Especially after the huge battle it takes to get inside, just to deal with a rather tame threat.

I still think they need to have their own page (if that is part of the discussion). But as to whether or not they warrant recognition as antagonists... I am entirely indifferent, and in full agreement that they are essentially just another faceless group of goons to roll over. 69.247.6.120 03:28, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

Their page is not part of the discussion, it should definitely stay. It's the page's inclusion in the Antagonist navbox and being considered as an end-game antagonist that is being argued. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 03:55, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

I believe it's a matter of context. If they were encountered even earlier on, then they wouldn't seem like antagonists and just a distinctly-named group of enemies. And even though they're not the last enemies encountered aboard the Enclave Mobile Platform, they're usually going to wind up the first ones you face once you enter the structure, like how the Alien captain is one of the first enemies you fight and kill once you reach the Bridge in Mothership Zeta, yet you kill a whole bunch of normal Aliens and even take on a whole other Mothership afterwards. However, that hardly makes that captain any less of an Antagonist in-game. And let's look at The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, where the first enemy you encounter that can be considered a boss/mini-boss Is a lone Ball & Chain Trooper guarding Princess Zelda's jail cell. And yet there are many other Ball & Chain Troopers encountered in the game as "Elite mooks" and the only thing that sets this one apart from the others is his black color scheme (whereas the others encountered throughout the game have a golden color scheme), and the fact that he fights totally alone.

Still, I can understand why adding the entire squad to the Navbox can be a stretch; Unlike the Think Tank, none of the five "normal" squad members really have their own names, ranks, or personalities. But if we have to axe them from the Navbox for any reason, I still think we ought to at least keep their leader there, seeing as he is a truly unique NPC (even though he has little to offer apart from his title) with equipment that deviates from the rest of the squad (even if it's pretty much the same gear used by the expansion's Hellfire troopers). Jykale (talk) 15:02, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

The problem is, your "context" is completely off. The first enemy of a dungeon is usually the most insignificant, and these guys don't do anything to change that. The Alien Captain is nothing like them as he's in charge of the ship and the Bridge where he is fought is the final room and goal of the whole add-on. What "whole bunch of normal Aliens" do you take on after him? Also, the second ship doesn't count as a fight, as all you do is press a couple, in-game buttons. Also, are you suggesting the Leader of the group is any different than the rest of the group? He's literally just a renamed enemy like the rest of them with zero personality or background. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 16:20, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, when it comes to renamed/retextured enemies/creatures, Bethesda/Obsidian were very lazy with model creation. The alien captain was simply recoloured, for example. Even President Kimball's model is re-used as another NPC in-game. I would not use that as a/the reason to dismiss unique enemies as antagonists. 69.247.6.120 16:31, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

It's not just the model, it's the stats, inventory, AI, etc. The Leader is identical to a Hellfire trooper and the rest are identical to regular soldiers. The only thing that minorly sets them apart is the name, and that's it. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 16:34, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

Think of it this way, it's not just the Enclave Mobile Platform you have to navigate through in Who Dares Wins, it's the entire air base. And it's actually quite a ways to actually access the platform, or the air base for that matter. So you can consider entering the EMP to be the half-way point, which is when you usually encounter a mini-boss. Video games don't always have their bosses be fought at the end, you know. And the stats and items don't really make a boss, since there are even more half-assed bosses in other games to the point where they shouldn't even count as bosses yet still are. Need I bring up how "difficult" the bosses in the Zelda Cd-I games are? There's also a trope that I think describes the Sigma squad perfectly: "Wolfpack Boss". Heck, even TV Tropes cites them as an example.

Also, the "whole bunch of other aliens" are the ones that swarm the bridge trying to re-take it while you're battling the Mothership. And as for the Mothership, it is a fight in the sense that you have to destroy before it destroys you, seeing as it can still blast you into space dust if you aren't careful with which buttons you press and when. Jykale (talk) 16:48, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

And yet, the soldiers outside are more of a challenge than Squad Sigma, along with the deathclaws and Sentry Bots that follow them. At best, they might be a mini-boss, but even that is doubtful because they're not just identical in difficult as regular soldiers, they're identical in every way as regular soldiers. Secondly, we're not talking about just whether or not they're a boss (they're not), we're talking about whether they're the antagonist of the add-on. Antagonists have to proof themselves to be a major obstacle, either by themselves or by leading the others against you. These Squad Sigma soldiers have not been shown to be either, especially in comparison to everybody else. Their location, doesn't make a difference, especially as they are completely skip-able. I admit, I forgot about the random aliens that attack during the ship battle, but that doesn't change the fact that the Alien Captain, who is leading the aliens that fight you, is the antagonist of the ship and capturing the ship, the main objective of the add-on, requires taking him out. The one minor engagement that's barely a challenge nor a fight, does not change that fact. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 17:18, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

The challenge and duration of the encounter is subjective, and depends on how strong and well-equipped your character is at that point. You can either wipe them out with a single grenade...or they can splatter you all over the walls faster than you can say "Uh-oh!". And since they're in the Enclave Mobile Platform specifically because of how important it is to protect it and keep it operational, it's no wonder that they waste no time in making sure the Lone Wanderer doesn't even get a chance to wreck the place. They're the most dead-set on making sure you don't get past the lower levels, and are the only ones that actively hunt you down once the alarm announces you're onboard (the others don't actually go looking for you unless they actually detect you nearby). I think a passion like that, combined with their status as the Enclave's Special Forces team warrants an antagonistic position, if only by default. Jykale (talk) 17:32, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Challenge isn't subjective when compared to other challenges. The soldiers with identical stats but greater numbers obviously make for more of a challenge. And they in no way hunt you down. They hear an alarm and enter the room. If they see you, they attack. If they don't see you (which is easy), most of them return to the room and never come back out. The fact that they're just hanging around in their dorm instead of engaging in battle shows they have little to no passion at all. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 17:40, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

Like I said, there are games with incredibly weak bosses that are no better than the mooks around them. And as for claiming they lack passion, the fact they actually go down at all and shoot the player on sight shows some signs of passion. The rest could be summed up by technical limitations, underwriting, and faulty AI. By all rights, one should expect a fight with the Sigma Squad to be a boss encounter, except they're severely downplayed. It's quite a conundrum, really: They're important enough in-universe not to be considered regular soldiers, but they're not distinct enough in-game to unmistakably be considered a major part of the game. I mean, the Armory Master, who is seemingly just a regular soldier, actually has a unique helmet and weapon in his possession, yet the elite troopers get stuck with standard gear and stats. Jykale (talk) 17:55, May 18, 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any basis to call them antagonists. They're foot soldiers. Elite ones perhaps, but they're foot soldiers. They're not the decision maker. Agent c (talk) 00:54, May 19, 2015 (UTC)

They don't have to be decision makers in order to be antagonists, otherwise Frank Horrigan wouldn't be considered an Antagonist, either. Heck, General Jingwei from Operation: Anchorage was hardly a decision maker since he was just part of the simulation and was programmed to do what the simulation needed him to do, and that was be the final target in the simulation. And I'm aware the squad only comes close to being a main antagonist by a few technicalities here and there, but they're honestly the closest thing to an Antagonist that Broken Steel actually has. If there was someone that was present in the expansion that would better qualify as an Antagonist, then the Sigma squad wouldn't have to be factored in at all, and we could just list that character instead. Jykale (talk) 01:17, May 19, 2015 (UTC)

Jingweii is the antagonist in that simulation

As for Frankie, he is unique. He is not a foot soldier, nor a decision maker. However, his presence overshadows the whole game. Agent c (talk) 01:22, May 19, 2015 (UTC)

First, I'd also like to bring up that Stanislaus Braun is listed in the Navbox as an antagonist, even though he's only encountered in one mission, has no relation to the Enclave whatsoever, and barely hinders the plot at all aside from trapping you and James in a virtual world. Not to mention Werhner is also deemed an antagonist even though he only becomes your enemy if you side with Ashur later on in The Pitt's questline.

Second, it's true that Squad Sigma are just a bunch of soldiers. But by the events of Broken Steel, the Enclave is nothing BUT soldiers. Sure, there are some scientists and officers found at Adams Air Force base and other installations, but they're severely overshadowed by their military counterparts. And who are the highest ranking Enclave soldiers you meet? Squad Sigma.

Third, we need to remember that Broken Steel is an add-on, and not a full-fledged game. So it doesn't really need some big, bad hardcore villain calling the shots or an epic boss battle. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try listing the Antagonist for it. Saying something like "The Enclave is the antagonist" or "Broken Steel doesn't have/need an antagonist" is just lazy, and is just an excuse not to think. Even if they barely do anything, Squad Sigma are the most notable Enclave personnel in that expansion that you fight, and they're guarding the most important location the Enclave has left. We can all agree that the Enclave is the antagonist, right? Well, then unless you can name someone still alive as of Who Dares Wins that explicitly outranks Squad Sigma, then they are technically the highest-ranking Enclave personnel in that add-on. And if they are the highest-ranking personnel, then that means they outrank all the others present by default. Thus, Squad Sigma are the antagonists of Broken Steel. Jykale (talk) 03:03, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

This leads to a separate, but still interesting question... who should be considered an antagonist in Broken Steel? And it got me to thinking... should the PC decide to destroy the Citadel, then they are pitted against Lyons after landing at the now-destroyed waypoint. Should Lyons be considered an antagonist by technicality? She most certainly is unique, and would be the leader of the CWBoS after her father's death. 69.247.6.120 01:33, May 19, 2015 (UTC)

And as an extra thought... Fallout 3 is clearly biased towards the CWBoS as the "Good Guys." Should the LW also be considered an antagonist, by technicality, since the option is there to destroy the "Good Guys?" 69.247.6.120 01:34, May 19, 2015 (UTC)

The Lone Wanderer can never be the antagonist, as Fallout 3 is their story. At worst, he/she could be a villain protagonist. The Brotherhood is debatable but I would personally lean no since they support you until the potential double cross and that's the end of the story. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 03:44, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

It would be wrong to assume that all antagonists are not good guys. Especially in a setting that is supposed to be morally grey. An antagonist, by definition, is simply a person that stands in opposition towards another person. 69.247.6.120 05:15, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say antagonists are good or bad. I just said that since Fallout 3 follows the Lone Wanderer, it is (s)he and their allies that are the protagonists and thei opposition that's the antagonists. If the story followed Autumn instead, it would be the other way around. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 05:28, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

That does not make any sense. Just because someone originally had good interactions with a person and/or group/faction, does not mean that they are permanently immune from being labeled as antagonists should they later become hostile towards them.

I mean no disrespect by this observation... but I am not sure that you understand what an antagonist is, by actual definition - not by a simple familiarity with how linear-storied games typically portray antagonists. A cat, scratching my foot, could, by definition, be classified as an antagonist should the cat have done it on purpose. It seems lazy to dismiss a clear antagonistic action against the PC, simply because they are portrayed as the "Good guys," or because they used to work with the PC. That is simply not how the term works. 69.247.6.120 05:38, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Nowhere did I say that once you're a protagonist or antagonist, you're stuck as one forever. The only constant protagonist is the main character of the story. More importantly, this discussion no longer has anything to do with the article, so it has to cease, per our talk page policy. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 05:52, May 20, 2015 (UTC)