Reconsidering DR versus DTEdit
Playing Fallout 3 for two years now, I question the whole point of having the SPECIAL version of DR. I mostly agree with Bethesda streamlining things to a single value. But It seems to me that DT is more practical for modeling armor than DR. I always hated how easily Paladin Hoss is killed by those puny little .32 pistol caliber rifles, or how I can blow away a top-level Sentry bot (Fallout 3) with Paulson's Revovler. To make things even more annoying, Bethesda allowed all Energy weapons to bypass DR. No Telsa resistence that I can see.
I welcome the reintroduction of DT to New Vegas, but I think that Obsidian should drop DR alltogether. It's redundant in the face of the threshold value, it isn't as intuitive or believable for gameplay purposes, it is easily abused by exploiting VATS and unique weapons, and it limits the options for making challenging NPCs. Instead of only inflating a Ghoul Reaver to 1100 HP, developers can add DT for it's metal armor, making it more resilient to lower-level weapons than DR allows. I think this also allows developers to stick by the game rules without borking the challenge; 635 HP is the max allowed at level 30, which makes for a pretty tough NPC as it is. Add a realistic DT to the armor and that Reaver will be potent without having to break rules or abuse DR.http://brianranzoni.com 11:02, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
The difference between DR and DT?Edit
So it seems to me that the main difference between DR and DT is that DR reduces damaged received by a percentage of damage taken while DT reduces damage received by a set number. Correct?
- As far as I know, that is specifically and exactly accurate. --Kris mailbox 01:25, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
- In the damage formula, damage is first reduced by any applicable resistances (including DR) as a percentage of the damage. These resistances stack additively, so if you had a 20% weakness to energy and 40 DR, you'd end up with 20% resistance against lasers and plasma. After resistance is done, the result is then reduced by a set value equal to DT. The game uses fMinDamMultiplier to set a minimum percentage. By default the value is 0.2, so regardless of resistance and DT, you cannot take less than 20% damage from a single attack.
- Resistances (including DR) are valuable up to the point where you'd be taking the minimum damage. By default, resistance caps at 85%, even though fMinDamMultiplier is 0.2 (so 85 DR would be effectively equal to 80 DR). DT doesn't seem to have any cap, but like DR, it's only valuable up to the point where you'd be taking 20% damage anyway. As one final note: creatures no longer have doubled DT like they did when the game first shipped, but they still do get doubled DR for some reason. Any DR effect you assign to a creature will be twice as powerful as if an NPC had it.--SushiSquid 13:09, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
- And I now realize that it's likely you were talking about the first games. What I posted was related to New Vegas.--SushiSquid 14:32, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
So basically... Damage Resistance: Damage Percentage reduction (If you have 25% Damage Resistance, any damage taken will be reduced by that amount, as in, 25 DR=25% damage reduction) Damage threshold: If your bullets DT is at 10, and the targets DT is at 5, You'll penetrate their armor with no damage reduction, However, if your bullet has 5 DT and your target has 20 DT, then the number between the DT and your bullets DT will be reduced by that amount in percent. For example: 5 Bullet DT vs. 20 Bullet DT. (20DT(Armor)-5DT(Bullet)=15DT=15% damage reduction. Amirite?
This ^^^ is completely wrong for Damage Threshold (DT) and slightly wrong for Damage Resistance (DR). In the example given where the bullets do 10 damage and the victims damage threshold is 5, what would happen is that after the bullets go through the armour, their damage is reduced by 5. 10-5=5. What is left is that the bullets do 5 damage to the victim. This system has some caveats though. Damage resistance must be calculated first and can not reduce damage to below 25% of the original damage. If it tries to do that then the original damage is just multiplied by 25%. Damage threshold can not reduce damage to below 20% of the DR damage. How DR and DT work together is as follows.
1) Damage Resistance is calculated. The original damage is multiplied by (100%-DR%) If that value is less than 25% of the original damage, then the equation (original damage * 25%) is used.
2) Damage Threshold is calculated. The value calculated from step #1 is used with Damage Threshold. The Damage Threshold is subtracted from The value calculated in step #1. (#1_value - DT). If this value is less than 20% of of the #1 value, then the equation (#1_value * 20%). is used.
3) The players health drops down by the amount of #2 value.
Here is one example of how this works. A shot of damage 40 is fired against a character with 95 DR and 10 DT. Damage Resistance is first calculated and the damage is reduced to 6 (95 DR is capped down to 85% reduction). Next Damage Threshold is calculated. The value from the previous step (6), has 10 subtracted from it. The result (-4) is less than 20% of the pre-adjusted original (6), so the final damage is instead 1.2 (6 * 20% = 1.2).
I Think it just might be the percentage of damage reduction, and if anything penetrates/is higher then that number, then it removes the protection of the armor.
DT is better? Edit
So with a DT of 20, if you got with an attack of 14 you'd take no damage, whereas an attack of 21 you'd recive one damage, correct?
Sorry forgot to sign- 184.108.40.206 00:07, October 19, 2010 (UTC)
- No. With 20 DT, you'd take some damage from both examples in New Vegas. You will always do a very small amount damage, regardless of DT. In the old games, you would only take damage from the 21 point attack. Nitty Tok. 00:09, October 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Makes things a lot more realistic... Now armor can actually be armor...--KnightNapier 13:11, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
- This mod brings back the original DT http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34872. So, back to your example, 14 DAM vs 20 DT = no damage taken. 21 DAM vs 20 DT = 1 damage taken. No bleedthrough if your DAM is below the DT (or at least, so says the mod author). Servius 16:50, October 25, 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, nice mod. I'd like to see pool cue wielding fiends damage my power armour now (so long as I'm not taking on radscorps with hollow points)! Out of curiosity, what is the damage that occurs when you attac kor are attacked by something that doesn't meet the DT? --DragonJTSLeave me a message 18:39, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Makes things a lot more realistic... Now armor can actually be armor...--KnightNapier 13:11, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
DT vs DR: which is applied first? Edit
Which is applied first, the DT or the DR? Some people might not be as math-minded as me, so I'll explain why this would matter. Let's say you have 8 DT and 50% DR of whatever damage type you'll be receiving. Let's say your attacker hits you with 20 damage before your DT/R is applied. If DT is applied first, the damage goes down to 12, then your DR cuts it down to 6 damage. If DR is applied first, it cuts it down to 10 damage, then your DT subtracts 8, bringing it down to a mere 2 damage. Anyone know which one is the case? NightChime 22:40, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
- The Fallout2 manual states that DT is applied first, then DR. I assume it's the same for Fallout 1 and Tactics 220.127.116.11 10:46, November 9, 2010 (UTC)dwaz
Player DT in NV? Edit
Does anybody know what determines the Player Character's DT in NV? My base DT when wearing nothing (new character) is -2 and I'm wondering if that's the default DT. I looked around the Wiki and the BethSoft forums and didn't see anything specific.--Sdpens 22:37, November 5, 2010 (UTC)
0 by default. You had -2 because you took Kamikaze trait. 18.104.22.168 17:39, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, totally forgot about that trait.--Sdpens 23:11, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
When is DT applied? Edit
In New Vegas, is DT applied before or after other damage multipliers? Say I have a hunting rifle (45 damage, 45 crit) with .308 JSP (x1.5 damage) and I do a critical hit against an opponent with 20 DT.
Would it be calculated as (45 + 45) * 1.5 - 20 = 125 or (45 - 20 + 45) * 1.5 = 105?
And how would sneak attack criticals factor in?
22.214.171.124 10:46, November 9, 2010 (UTC)dwaz
- I believe DT/R reduction is applied after all damage multiplayers. —17:19, August 14, 2011 (UTC)
I have rewritten the whole DT article for FNV section, hopefully it will help explain how DT works and what impact it has on the calculations and answering most of the questions already here. GhostAvatar 20:50, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
DT and DR Stats Forthcoming? Edit
Is there any chance someone can post up the DT & DR% values for the creatures of FONV? Not to sound cynical, but what is the point of the Damage Inflicted formula, without the necessary stats to input into it? Some DT values have been added to some of the creature info boxes, but without the DR% this formula is moot.126.96.36.199 00:01, November 18, 2010 (UTC)Pulsar
- Thats because very few things have any thing other than a 0 assigned to the DR value. In fact other than the Rebreather I am finding it hard to find anything which has a DR value, it is pretty much a defunct value in New Vegas. Which leads me to believe that the Rebreather was simply a oversight by the devs and DR was supposed to be removed all together by setting everything to 0 in favor of DT.
- As for the NPC's, this is something I have not looked into with much detail, but from what I can gather the values are set to 0 with most of the DT coming from any armour. The formula is of more use for calc your own protection more than anything else. Avatar 01:16, November 21, 2010 (UTC)
Shotguns and DT Edit
Using a Sawed-Off Shotgun has not been too effective for me against people with armor, even at close range. Does the DT affect each pellet, i.e. is 7.1x14 damage ineffective vs DT 8 or higher? 188.8.131.52 23:33, November 22, 2010 (UTC)Thanks, Mike
- Yes, the DT is applied vs. each pellet. This is the reason for the Shotgun Surgeon perk. --Kris 02:33, November 23, 2010 (UTC)
Yep and Nope Edit
Now I love Bethesda to death, but I must say DT is a more accurate model of armor than DR is. Beth put it in FO3 because it already existed in TES:IV (and the cap was 85% believe it or not). The only problem I have is this. Hollow points are just about useless against most everything. It bugs me. Now I understand how insects and arachnids like scorpions and ants and shit have that whole "exoskeleton" thing going on, so they are somewhat hardened against puny rounds... but deathclaws? Come on. Deathclaws are big and strong and evil but they're soft. Any soft target, i.e. a human/ghoul wearing civilian clothes or a big muscly deathclaw should have a very low DT and so I should be able to use hollow points against meaty targets without fear. I don't give a shit about "thick hides." Grumble. --Jackarunda 20:48, November 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Personally I hate DT because it renders automatic weapons like the Gatling laser weak as shit, but ant's have no DT so hollow-points should work fine. As for the Deathclaws their DT is what makes them dangerous and they aren't natural (not even radioactive natural) the U.S Military created by genetic engineering a bunch of different species for combat situations so it makes sense that they would have some kind of hardened shell to protect them in dangerous situations. --1stRecon 01:23, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
- Apart from that, ever seen rhino skin? Even in our world, some big creatures have skin thick enough to turn bullets, at least the lighter variety. Wunengzi 13:15, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
DT Cap? Edit
I know DR in Fallout 3 capped out at 85%, like in Oblivion. Does DT in New Vegas cap somewhere? I'm going for a maxed DT character (Toughness X 2, Sub-Dermal Armor, Remnant Armor, etc.), and wondering if I'm getting much mileage out of going past 40 or so. Super Duper Mutant 21:13, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
- If you read the page you will see that a minimum of 20% damage bleeds through regardless of DT. So if you are hit with a shot that does 10 damage you will always take a minimum of 2 damage unless you DT is lower than 10 regardless of how extremely high your DT is. ☣Avatar☣ 21:29, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I got that, but is there a number where DT just totally caps out? As in, have DT of X with no helmet equipped, equip Power Helment and DT doesn't go up because it's already at the max. 184.108.40.206 04:18, December 5, 2010 (UTC)
- No it's not capped; but again it is if you fight opponents that have a low DMG/attack weapon :) --220.127.116.11 17:05, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
DT bleedthrough and difficulty Edit
Is the increased damage at higher difficulties calculated before, or after DT?
Say I have a DT of 20 (and 0 DR) and I'm hit for 15 damage, normally I'd take 3 damage thanks to the 20% bleedthrough. When playing at very hard, damage is doubled, but would that mean that 15 damage is doubled to 30 and then DT is applied, so I'd takeh 10 damage, or that the damage after DT is doubled, leaving me with 6 damage taken? Dwaz 10:11, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
Wrong Formula Picture? Edit
The text say that the minimum damage would 20% of the weapon damage, regardless of damage threshold and damage reduction. So the formula "max((Shot Damage-DT)x(100%-DR%),(Shot Damage x 20%)x(100%-DR%))= Damage inflicted" should be wrong. With 80% DR for example, the second part of the formula would produce only 4% of the Shot Damage and not the minimum of 20%.
Corrected Formula should look like this: max((Shot Damage-DT)x(100%-DR%),(Shot Damage x 20%))= Damage inflicted --18.104.22.168 11:22, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
"This article is missing an image ... " Edit
Are you fucking kidding me? Where the hell are we supposed to get a screenshot of a concept?! You ask too much of us, Internet.
- I think the internet just owned you <.<
I started playing Fallout 1Edit
And I wonder where is DT shown? I dont know what my DT is ;(
If I recall right I heard that deathclaws go straight through DT or DR (can't remember which.) or is it both? Basically I want to know if one cannot be reduced or is less effective than the other. So far I've just taken that perk that gives me faster run speed in light armor + I have Kamikaze most of the time, so I haven't worried about it to much.... Roflmaomgz 08:12, June 25, 2011 (UTC)
Faded DT? Edit
Alright so i'm playing Fallout: New Vegas and i notice i've been more susceptible to damage then usual, so i check my pip-boy. After checking the EFFECTS to no avail, i switched to Items to check my armor. My armor is in perfect condition, but i looked to where it says DT and instead of being the normal color it is darker, and faded, but only my DT is like this. I've looked everywhere, but i can't find anything about this, and i fear it may mean that my DT is just being ignored completely, by EVERYTHING. Anyone know what might be wrong? --22.214.171.124 05:30, August 1, 2011 (UTC)
I've noticed the samething in my game, even when I put it on very easy, my health was dropping like a rock and that was against even weak oponents (I have a DT 21). Macilnar 12:28, August 2, 2011 (UTC)
Head shots? Edit
I see the game has head gear, but does the game differentiate DT for different body parts? Or it's just one summary DT for the whole body? If latter then the most important benefit of head shots is practically out of the window. —17:44, August 14, 2011 (UTC)
Oh, headshots do 2x damage.
It seems that DT (armor) is only useful at low levels... Edit
Because, for example, against Deathclaw's attacks a standard DT of 20 oftentimes won't change anything, you would still die from same number of hits. Am I right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!
- It would be more accurate to say that DT is useless against deathclaws, because deathclaws' attacks ignore DT. High DT is still useful against most other high-end Mojave dangers, and I think a DR is still effective against deathclaws, what little there is to be had in FNV that is (Med-X and the rebreather are all that come to mind). --Kris 12:38, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
- What on earth is the point of this feature, anyway? Just to make sure deathclaws can hurt you no matter what? It would seem far more logical to allow them to do what they would in fact do in real life, knock you over and give you concussion before they managed to make it through your armor. Wunengzi 13:19, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
Grammar issue Edit
Stop changing the section under bugs it's grammatically correct the way the had it--Your friend, Austinsnoop 03:53, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
- You are wrong. Do not keep reposting grammatically incorrect updates to the wiki. The definite article is not capitalized when part of a proper noun structure, so stop doing it.--SushiSquid 21:38, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
Missing DR/DT value Edit
My pip boy no longer shows DR/DT, the article mentions something about this but not how to recover if the problem persists. Any ideas?
update: Adding Sub-Dermal Armor seemed to solve the problem, not sure what to do if it turns up again though.
Update 2: Equipping the Rebreather (with has DR rather than DT) seemed to fix the problem, just make sure the pip boy is displaying DT, not DR or in between.
Here's something I don't quite understand: the formula given here claims that 'other modifiers' occurs before DT reduction, which is fair enough. However, the 20% bleed through effect uses 20% of the ADJUSTED damage instead of BASE damage. What I'm asking is does the ammunition types and their effects come under 'other modifiers'? If so then this system is a little weird.
Here's an example: if I use a weapon with 11.8 DAM with normal rounds and hollow point rounds on a target, as you increase the target's DT, hollow point will obviously hit the 20% barrier before normal rounds. In this case, hollow point would hit the barrier at around 6 DT while normal rounds will hit the barrier at 10 DT.
BUT, since the target is taking 20% of the 'adjusted dam', then if its DT>10, where both ammo types hit their barriers, overall damage from hollow type rounds is still higher than standard. This makes very little sense, because what we're effectively saying is to maximise damage, switch to hollow point again when you're normal rounds isn't sufficient: you won't pierce the DT but you'll still be doing more damage. --101Phase 23:00, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
- That's a good point. The adjusted damage may only include DR. Or, the mechanics may be such that adjusted damage is actually base damage and the interaction between DR/other multipliers and DT is actually more complicated than listed. I need to do some experiments... I'm going to update the page with the more sensical formula (other multipliers not a part of the "adjusted") since obviously HP isn't always better than normal. I'm going to do some testing later.
- It may also be that really just the BASE is used for the 20%, and if that's the case, that means there's a slight bug in the game where effectively DR higher than 80 is useless. Again, bears testing. (Thelee (talk) 20:29, July 19, 2012 (UTC))
- Upon reflection, the damage equation is most likely something like:
- So DR would come after DT, like in other fallout games. I say this is the most likely equation mainly because it requires the least amount of mental hurdles to try and reason through any possible interaction between all of the effects, and also because in Oblivion, straight up DR came last after any other effects (like damage reflection). (Thelee (talk) 20:54, July 19, 2012 (UTC))
- I think given the above, it makes sense to go ahead and adjust all combat equations appropriately. The burden of proof is to demonstrate that DR is handled specially (like an ammo multiplier, but somehow with a special exception to allow for 85 DR). I plan on testing at some point when I have time, but if others test before me and find that the equation is not as i hypothesize, then please re-fix the equations. (Thelee (talk) 20:56, July 19, 2012 (UTC))
- Wow, way to *ing go - pushing edits onto articles basing solely on hypothesis. Until you get down to testing your ideas, please refrain to adding changes to math formulas. I did extensive research & testings on the damage formula, and kept testing until I was sure it is correct before releasing the changes. --Slider2k (talk) 20:49, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
DAMAGE THRESHOLD INCREASE ON SUITS?Edit
I was browsing through the wiki searching for the best armor and i noticed another guy on the internet asking for looks or armor. The point is that he showed his Assassins suit dt being a 28. When the wiki shows it being only 14. What is the explanation to this. Is there a way to increase a suits dt? Please answer soon! Also tell me what you think are the 2 best armors in the light, medium, and heavy category and do me a favor and give an explanation to why.
DT not showing Edit
In New Vegas i just noticed that my DT stopped displaying. My armor is repaired to normal condition, what could be causing this?