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Things to doEdit
- Caesar concerning floats form demo text extract.
- Iron Lines case - integrated into Fort Abandon?
War with the NCREdit
Hoover Dam design document: (after failed Caesar's Legion attack on Hoover Dam) the NCR-BoS war has lasted for almost two years, attacks used to come frequently, but have died down to the point of stopping for almost a year.
Important witness of war was Candice Morris FoA chapter head in Hoover Dam, acting as historian.
Speculations stub - Roman empireEdit
- Factors of the ancient roman army success, probably admired by Caesar, were:
- consistent motivation and cohesion.,
- adaptation of good practices,
- Discipline, organization and systematization eg. in training, logistics, engineering or replacements system.
- Vexillarius - in ancient roman army vexillifer was special duty post, unique to the legion; he was one of the signiferi (standard bearers); his duty was to carry the vexillum, a military standard displaying the name and emblem of the legion (in late antiquity it was common for a legion to detach some sub-units from the main camp to strengthen other corps; in these cases, the detached subunits carried only the vexillum, and not the aquila, and were called, therefore, vexillationes); Terrence is not a vexillum bearer, but slaver transport pack leader,
- Centurion - in ancient roman army mid-level officer, the backbone of the professional army, career soldier who ran the day to day life of the soldiers as well as issuing commands in the field; centurions were generally moved up from the ranks, but in some cases could be direct appointments from the Emperor or other higher ranking officials; comparing the centurion to modern military ranks is problematic, as the century falls somewhere between modern platoon size (30-40 soldiers), and modern company size (100-200 soldiers); in fact centurions covered a whole range of ranks; ordinary century commanders would be equivalent to a modern army lieutenants (a first or second) or captains - as platoon or company level units commanders; the senior centurions leading cohorts would be equivalent to lieutenant colonels; the Primus Pilus, leading doubled first cohort, with his senior staff role (advisor to the Legatus Legionis) might be considered equivalent to a modern colonel.
- Informal position of Caesar's right hand man, held by Joshua Graham (notice: (1) possible ancient mimicking positions: Tribunus Laticlavius - second in command or Primus Pilus - senior Centurion.
- Caesars personal guards or part of the Legion together with Caesar - praetorians or the first cohort
- With each legion having 4,000–6,000 legionaries usually supported by an equal number of auxiliary troops, the total force available to a legion commander during the Pax Romana probably ranged from 8,000–12,000. It is doubtful, if van Buren has so many slavers, even with their families.
- children combatants?
- scouts are named speculatores or exploratores
- outside of the legion ranks are "auxilia"
- may be in van Buren vexillarius is commander of vexillatio (detached part of legion) position? Terrence acts as Legion agent/representative on the soutwest
- why crucifiction was not the capital punishment?
- if Caesar is only name, not an imperial title, it could be triumvirate possible there - Caesar, his FoA fellow and Graham,
- what about slavers forehead scar? have it slaving tribals?
- vexillum consisted of a woven fabric banner, hung on a crossbar attached to a pole or lance,
- The contubernium was the smallest organized unit of soldiers in the Roman Army and was comprised of eight legionaries, comparable to the modern squad, known as an octet. It was led by a decurion. Two "servants" (actually comparable to modern support troops) were assigned to each octet. They were responsible for the care of the octet's pack mule, making sure the legionaries had water during the march, and often had special skills like blacksmithing or carpentry. Ten contubernia were grouped into a centuria. Soldiers of a contubernium shared a tent, and were rewarded or punished together.
Caius Drusus does carry a BIG .45 handgunEdit
It is all known about it from van Buren. The rest is the Fallout context - I mean all .45 guns appeared at Fallout games, including Sawyer's PnP. As far I remember there are .45 pistol or autoloader and some smg/machine pistols also, however handgun suggests something pistol like. Casull is as heavy as should be sth big. May be in real world is present some very famous BIG .45 handgun, wich could be planned for van Buren as something unique (as Gizmo's 9 mm pistol).
What about Legio XIII Gemina, with whom Caesar crossed Rubicon? They are also the Caesar's Legion. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
We should ask JE Sawyer, if van Buren Caesar mimicked Caius Julius Caesar or it was general imperial title. Of course GJC has a lot legions, but van Buren Caesar's slavers organized into ONE legion - the only Caesar's Legion. JE Sawyer's red-black standard and description reffered legio X, but I think it was another mimicking. dotz
Help with grammar is required and welcome.--dotz 18:15, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Caesar's legion in New Vegas Edit
Anyone else think it's safe to say that Caesar's Legieon will be based out of the famous Caesar's Palace hotel in New Vegas? (To avoid confusion, when I originally posted this I hadn't intended to put it in the article section. Obviously it's only an idea and shouldn't be treated as canon information. It was for the sake of discussion and probably belongs in the forum section. -My mistake.)'
- No, Caesar's Legion existed way before New Vegas, so it's based on original Chris Avellone's designs, rather than a hotel we're not even sure exists in the retrofuturistic Vegas. Tagaziel (call!) 08:37, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
I disagree, I know that Caesars legion was planned before they started making new vegas, but we know that Caesars legion controls the vegas strip (as said in the article) which Is where Caesars palace is located, and what a perfect place to put Caesars legion right? Especially considering it's one of the most famous hotels in vegas. It might not actually be called Caesars palace in the game, but I'll bet they'll base something in the game on Caesars palace.
- They're not really basing New Vegas around our modern day Vegas. Tagaziel (call!) 07:27, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
Oh really? Why is the stratosphere there then? Oops I mean lucky 38. You get the idea. I know it's not based on the vegas of today, but it's obviously still influenced by it. And it's not like Caesars palace was built this decade or anything, it's pretty old, it was built in the 1960s, I realize that fallout is based out of the 50s, but the stratosphere wasn't built til the 80s. And you can't argue that the statosphere wasn't the inspiration for lucky 38.
- It wasn't the *sole* inspiration. The fact that Lucky 38 *isn't* a carbon copy of the Stratosphere is a pretty good indication that New Vegas is going to be a lot different from our Vegas. Tagaziel (call!) 11:23, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
Whatever you say man, I'm pretty sure even the developers would tell you that lucky 38 was based on the stratosphere, even if it's not EXACTLY the same. But that's not even the point. By now, you intend to shoot down any possible thing I have to say. It's interesting, actually. It doesn't matter what I think, you'll be ready to tell me I'm wrong. So, agree to disagree.
Stop speculating? when was I speculating? I said "Anyone else think it's safe to say that Caesar's legion will be based out of Caesar's Palace", and "I'm pretty sure even the developers would tell you that lucky 38 was based on the stratosphere". It's not like I insisted that everything I said was definately going to be in the game. Excuse me for suggesting something. I'm not saying that Caesar's Palace (or something based on it) will definately be in the game, I'm just saying I wouldn't doubt it, and also that at this point you don't know for any fact that it's not in the game. To clear things up, It's not like I was trying to put in the article section that Caesar's legion would be in Caesar's palace. So once again, agree to disagree (even if you think I'm speculating).
- Yes, the Lucky 38 was partially based on the Stratosphere. You base your argument on the reasoning that since a Stratosphere look-a-like is in New Vegas, then other locations from our timeline can make an appearance. However, this is not true, as the Lucky 38 is an amalgam of several buildings and the Stratosphere is just one of them. If Obsidian wanted to base New Vegas off our own, then the Lucky 38 would be directly based on the Stratosphere, instead of being based on several buildings. Tagaziel (call!) 20:36, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
you're right about lucky 38. It's based on a collection of several buildings. that's a good point. I agree with that, and once again I realize that New Vegas isn't based on our Vegas, I get that. But the fact that lucky 38 is partially based on many real life buildings that were made after the 50's just indicates that New Vegas is influenced by modern vegas (even though it's not a 'carbon copy' as you say). Having that said, I still can't help but think that the developers easily could work in a place that's partially based on Caesar's Palace, if they wanted to. I just personally think it would be a good idea, especially since Caesar's Palace is such a prominent location in Las Vegas. That's what I base my argument on. I'm not insisting that it will be in the game, but I still think it easily could be. So, I disagree with you, you disagree with me, that's how the story ought to end, but I'm sure you're not gonna be willing to quit any time soon.
Should anything be posted on the fact that they follow the roman tradition of crucifixion? Obviously not a section in itself but maybe a mention in the article introduction? Mentioned with the other roman things they copy? Chariots, armour, slavery etc
I'm not sure about whether Caesar's legion are actually copying Roman tradition, but it's obviously a reference. No question, and yeah it's definitely worth mentioning, but are you sure it's not already included?B2tg 04:19, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
maybe it was Joshua Graham's idea to help make them pure, like how jesus was crucified considering he joined the reason he must have had religous motives (not beliving in the roman religon the legion follows but following their rules) i mean caeser might have agreed because he thought it was amusing
They follow Roman customs and traditions because they idolize how effective the ancient empire was at conquering and prospering. Crucifixion was a part of that, therefore they included that in their methods of capital punishment, not for the sake of the religious symbolism attached to it after Jesus was nailed to a cross. The Roman empire adopted their own versions of the Greek gods, Christianity was not their state religion. 18.104.22.168 08:33, February 28, 2015 (UTC)
Section Rewrite Edit
This whole page needs to be revised and rewritten. In it's current form, it is almost unreadable. I've already combed through it and fixed a few typos, but some sentences are so badly mangled that I can't tell what they're trying to say. SagaDC 19:55, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that's why there's a cleanup tag at the top of the page. --Kris 19:58, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, right, didn't even notice that. Silly me. SagaDC 20:03, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
Removed from article Edit
The following sections have been removed from the article as part of the cleanup. Some of the content can later be reintegrated in the article in a more coherent form.
The Legion had specific titles and/or ranks. Known ranks were:
- Legionnaire or Soldier - simple slaver in Legion ranks, who were arranged into squads or packs,
- Vexillarius - the only appearance was a pack leader,
- Centurion - the only appearance was Caius Drusus. Centurions oversaw Vexilla,
The commander-in-chief of the Legion was Caesar. Caesar's right hand man was initially Joshua Graham. Outside of the Legion, ranks were subjugated and allied tribes as well as some cooperating freelance slavers.
Mimicking the ancient traditions of the Roman Empire, the legionnaires dressed in segmented football pad armor and decorated football helmets. Caesar's Legion had access to firearms, ammunition, leather and metal armors produced by the Reservation. Appeared and mentioned pieces of equipment used by legionaries were:
- Shotguns - a simple, accurate weapon suitable for reconditioned recent tribals, the legionnaires that appeared in the Reservation were probably armed with it and other possible examples of shotguns were: ordinary double-barreled shotguns, used by slaver master Metzger from Den, a pump-action shotgun used against legionnaires and a sawed-off shotgun, appeared among Van Buren demo sprites,
- Hunting rifles - decent quasi-sniper weapon used by slavers during slave raids from The Den,
- Assault rifles - possible to purchase in the Reservation, probably used by legionnaires appeared there,
- heavy environmental suits, worn by legionnaires in the Reservation,
- at least some equivalent of Leather armors,
- a dog repellent, sprayed by legionnaires around their camp in Denver,
- There were possibly some other small arms, like a big .45 handgun carried by Caius Drusus,
- Strange chariot concept art can be source of speculations concerning its use and its background, e.g. other possible self propelled vehicles or presence of hippodrome at the Legion headquarter. It is not mentioned at Van Buren design documents however.
Yes, use the strings to turn the car.--Blahmarrow 00:42, February 16, 2011 (UTC)
Relations with other organizations Edit
Caesar’s Legion is a truly brutal group, hostile towards many factions present in the southwest.
- Caesar's Legion has open hostilities with the NCR and the NCR Rangers over the issue of slavery. The Followers of the Apocalypse are touchy about their connection with the Legion, because Caesar was formerly a follower.
- Legionaries don't hesitate to enslave or kill Mormons, despite the fact that most tribals and other organizations leave them alone, knowing that they often voluntarily give medical assistance or other aid. Mormons are ashamed that from their ranks came Joshua Graham, one of the Legion's founders.
- The Daughters of Hecate reserved a special hatred for Caesar’s Legion, because Caesar's Legion had destroyed Hecate's original tribe - Twisted Hairs. The Legion should have hostile relationships with the Vipers, too.
- The Blackfoot tribe is tributary to Caesar. Most of the Blackfoots fear the power of Hecate and her Daughters, but unlike Caesar, they see being under the influence of Hecate as a necessary evil, since she has "proven" time and again that she controls the tribe's fertility. During Van Buren's development, the Hangdogs were merged with the Blackfoots. It was planned for the Hangdogs to promise to deliver Blackjack to Caesar's Legion and they would be severely punished if this promise wasn't fulfilled. According to leaks, the Hangdogs were planned to be in league with Hecate.
- Other tribes were probably neutral or absent, like the Jackals or Scaven Pickers, or were potential victims, like the Ciphers and Twin Mothers.
October 2253 Edit
During Van Buren gameplay the Legion presence finally was planned in:
- Denver, at temporarily transit camp prepared for the slave transport on the way to the east; it seems, that Vexillarius Terrence, Caesar's Legion official in Denver, was planned to be important Caesar's representative on the southwest, known as Caesar's Legion agent.
- The Reservation, where some slaves were being sold,
- Fort Abandon - however in Van Buren's first vision it was planned to be the NCR rundown fort,
- Hostile random encounters.
The Legion's presence in Denver and the Reservation wasn't permanent - Denver was visited anually and the Reservation was visited monthly. Except one planned event (appeared as effects of Handogs punishment, when Blackjack wasn't delivered) there was no Legion presence at Blackfoot village. Caesar relied on two packs of Legionaries, allied freelance slavers and allied Blackfoot tribesmen to secure Caesar's business in the southwest. Caesar and accompanying him part of his Legion should have some base, abandoned probably while the Legion moved to the east. The only known the NCR military action against Caesar's Legion at Van Buren plot was take over Fort Abandon. It was planned to do by the NCR army renegades accompanying Dr. Presper. There is no information about any NCR retaliation actions after failed attack on Hoover Dam.
The Legionaries present in the southwest took slaves from a number of sources, such as the Blackfoot tribes and those captured by freelance slavers. However, only the Reservation was interested in purchasing a significant number of slaves, while a small number were sold to the Blackfoots and Hecate's tribe, so a majority of them were exported back east once a year from the Denver Camp.
Denver affairs Edit
The Legion pack encountered in Denver was responsible for transport of the slaves to the east, where the new Caesar's headquarter was located. Legion pack appeared there once a year on their way back to Caesar. Than every couple of weeks a pair of fast guys out east to scout, if the radioactive dust storms had subsided for the season. Once they did, they headed out. This pack was led by Vexillarius Terrence. Under his command were 5 generic legionaries - Cruz, Wierzbowski, Thunderfoot, Ivory and Marco. One of them could be a sniper and two of them were scouts. They were well armed, as far as wastelanders go. If the Prisoner was in alliance with the Blackfoot tribe, he had in with the guys from Caesar's Legion. They mainly wanted to keep away from the "primitives and assholes" that lived in this part of the continent. After an unsuccessful dialogue Terence and his slavers would attack the Prisoner. Among the slaves the Prisoner could encounter Daniel, super mutant Blackjack and captured Ciphers. Blackjack could be sold there by Alexandra, CNPC bounty hunter. The Reservation didn't buy super mutant and ghoul slaves, so if there were any, they were transported to the east. Acting as Caesar's Legion agent Terrence could purchase or get Ciphers slaves, Blackjack and information about gentle Twin Mothers tribe, for 1000 caps.
The legionnaires in Denver were camped out in a hotel in southern part of the town with some slaves they've rounded up. They had the lower floors secured with chain link fence and barriers made of junk. They kept the dogs away with chemical repellent sprayed in the area, resprayed every year when they return there. They were alert. They stayed on the 2nd level, though they were watching their surroundings and might have a sniper hiding out on the ground floor. They kept the slaves locked in rooms on the 2nd and 3rd floor. The Prisoner had to deal some way with the Legion slavers, if he wanted to repair klaxon station on the 2nd floor of the hotel and drive with all of the dogs out of the city. It had never been a concerted salvage effort until the NCR salvagers arrived to Denver, however probably Caesar's Legion had made by slaves some basic salvage and building works concerning its camp.
Trade with the Reservation Edit
Experienced centurion Caius Drusus was in charge with slave supplies there. Members of Caesar’s Legion were the main suppliers of the slaves for the Reservation. There were other slave traders, but most slaves came from Caesar’s Legion. Caesar's Legion enjoyed trading human slaves for firearms, armors and ammo. Trade was lucrative, however the Reservation didn't buy super mutant or ghoul slaves.
Caesar's slave traders came once every month to sell slaves to ghoul Horatio. Should the Prisoner wasted the Slaver Caravan in the "Slaver Caravan" random encounter; Caius and friends would never show up again to sell slaves. This would concern Horatio, but he would not lose sleep over it since there were other slavers in the wasteland, e.g. ghoul slaver Ingmar or slavers from "Slaver Caravan random encounter".
Caesar's Legion needed ammunition such as 12 ga, 5 mm, and smaller amounts of .45 bullets and maybe .223 FMJ. However it is not certain where the Legion weapons shipments go, if there were any. Travel to the east was possible once a year only and there is no information concerning Caesar's Legion weapons caravans.
Delivered slave number estimations - if average long term slave workers number on the Sub-Level 2 was two dozen:
- there were from 47 to 58 groups of slaves delivered by the Legion on constant monthly basis until October 2253; number of slaves per month was unknown, there could be some fresh slaves at the slave market also,
- since 2249 year ghouls have lost from 47 to 58 slave workers,
- with 98% slob waste rate, during 2 years after Belle was born the Reservation wasted ca. 13 slobs, for creation of 4 Born ghouls between 2227 and 2251 year where it was used c.a. 200 slobs,
- there were from 60 to 71 lost slave workers and slobs together, from 2249, which is rather contrary to c.a. 50 monthly slaves shipments.
Caesar, Hecate and Tribals Edit
- For over a decade since year 2231 four Brotherhood of Steel paladins under Andrea Brixley's command had explored "the east" from Maxson Bunker and had forged relationships with many of the tribes that inhabited the area.
- Caesar's Legion, established after 2238 year, was comprised mostly of reconditioned tribals and their offspring.
- Growing in power Caesar's Legion taught the tribes to fight back the Twisted Hair tribe. Hecate, the only Twisted Hair survivor, influenced these tribes and was going to annihilate them.
- Caesar had executed Joshua Graham by tribals. These tribals feared and hated Graham, especially Graham was feared by Blackfoots.
- Jackals had been moving east to the Boulder area because of pressure from the unified tribes, other tribes despise and fear them. Jackals were supported by a Daughter of Hecate called Crazy Bitch.
- Other known tribes hosting Daughters of Hecate were Blackfoots with Hangdogs and Twin Mothers. Twin Mothers were not known to Caesar's Legion, they weren't a member of anti-Twisted Hair league and they couldn't harm Hecate. Ciphers and "Iron Lines" refused Hecate's care and because of it they were in conflict with Hecate's people. "Iron Lines" had remained largely immune to the plagues, which haunt other tribes, who went against Hecate’s wishes.
- The only known tribe on the southwest allied with Caesar was Blackfoots. However they were supported by Hecate also.
- Blackfoots sold slaves to other tribes and to the Reservation. The only other known slaving tribe in van Buren were Hecate's people - her Hounds aka Vipers. Maybe ghouls in the Reservation could be regarded as a some kind of "tribe".
A possible explanation of contradictions is that Caesar assimilated or took to the east his tribes also, and technically - tribes weren't implemented into Van Buren or were cut off. There is Van Buren first vision plot also - the Daughters of Hecate and Caesar’s Legion was thought to use them to build an army with Ciphers, Hangdogs, Vipers and Jackals tribes.
Just a question Edit
Can Bethesda give us a bit of background on how many people live under Caesars rule. I mean his army's are huge but he must have civilians too so...Roughly how many
- There are no exact figures but according to the official developer description Caesar's Legion includes the entire populations of 86 tribes. Now, a "tribe" in New Vegas is a variable number: for example, the relatively small number of Chairmen are referred to as a "tribe" by Mr. House, though the rather larger Great Khans are also a "tribe". However, from the descriptions given in-game, the total number of individuals involved probably numbers in the thousands. Since those men who do not join the military are killed, the civilians are all women, reducing the possible number of civilians considerably. --Webgiant 16:50, February 7, 2011 (UTC)
Quick Question Edit
I know that Fallout isn't exactly known for it's realism, but can anyone tell me exactly how Caesar's Legion is even able to compete with the NCR period, much less threaten it? I mean, the recruitment strategies that the Legion use might have worked in the days of Rome, but in anything resembling modern times, an army of slaves would most likely be plagued by corruption, low morale, desertion, and incompetence, and the Legion's immense power as portrayed in the game is laughable to anyone with even the most basic understanding of military science. Their archaic human-wave tactics, combined with their melee-oriented infantry force going toe-to-toe with a relatively industrialized nation with modern equipment, including machineguns, assault rifles, and even some limited use of helicopters and artillery (the big AAA gun at Hoover Dam) would have very predictable results. Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know, I haven't finished my Legion playthrough yet.
Sure i guess i can explain:
Caesar has HUGE amounts of people. Most of these people are captured tribals. The older men usually get enslaved, the women usually become officers wife's or slave labor. The children are the ones that the legion really wants though since they can be trained and tamed to become loyal supporters. Which is what the legion does.
Most of the troop these days are likely kids taken from tribes conquered in the past and a few second generation legionaries. They go through hell and come back with the brutal training they get and all the legion propaganda crammed into their head. This brakes any tribal/family/human bonds they had before and turns them into cold blooded, no-nonsense, die for the cause super soldiers.
Most of the resources to feed and arm the legion likely come in the same way it did during Imperial Roman times. Freemen and retired legionaries get land, slaves and guards. The slaves work themselves to death to grow food while the guards who are likely recruits get shelter, food and training. This help's take a load of the legion and keep the slaves under control. These estates and plantations are likely huge producing large amounts of food. Other slave camps likely mine in old mines or log in reviving forests. As we know there are nearly no raiders and bandits in Caesars territory and if he is smart enough to recognize the importants of roads(which the ancient Romans did) they likely have good road systems (built on the back of slaves likely) which would make trade and transport prosperous. As we know they have cities the size of anything the NCR has so mass-production is likely(again on the backs of slaves and skilled artisan's). This would ensure the legion has good resource backing(this is for instance demonstrated in the gold and silver coins mass-produced by the legion).
All and all slave labor and old Roman tech would likely actually be one of the best ways to forge a new world order out of the hell hole of the wastes!
This is only of course speculation from combining the sources we have and what we know about the Romans
Herax 09:44, November 25, 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'm the OP, sorry I never signed my post. I never really comment on wikis so please bear with me here. See, what I don't think most of these "Legion fanboys" I've seen on forums discussing the topic is that the problem with slavery, morality aside, is that it tends to be a path very prone to stagnation, which reminds me of a quote I can't seem to find the origin of, "slavery is the death of innovation". I think the problem stems with the Roman analogies which a lot of people are reading into waaay to deep, while the much more relevant (in my opinion, anyway) overtones of the Westward Expansion on the NCR side go largely unnoticed. Judging from your argument, you seem to think that slavery and a somewhat updated version of the Putting Out System rather than industrialization is a viable method of progress, whereas, at least in the modern era (roughly 1500 to present) that has certainly not been the case.
For instance, the Spanish Empire's use of slavery in their colonies and their failure to get on the bandwagon during the Industrial Revolution decayed what was once the most powerful country in the world and led to its collapse. The same could be said of the American South. The largely agricultural South which was built on the backs of slaves worked decently well in its own right (as one could say of the Legion), but when going head to head with an industrial power (like say, the NCR) with modern weapons and an infrastructure to support said forces, the South had zero chance of victory in a sustained conflict. And the technological gap between the two wasn't even that great in the case of the Civil War. The history of European colonialism is full of examples of how an army of slaves and tribals using hand weapons fare against professional, national armies with modern firearms, and it isn't pretty.
A question I really want to ask a lot of these people gushing over the the Legion is this: Why would the Legion would fare better than say, the Incas at Cajamarca, or the Mahdis at Omdurman, the Native Americans during the Westward Expansion, the Qings in the Opium War, or for a more recent example of a one-sided shooting gallery of a war, the Iraqis in the Persian Gulf War? I stress again that while the Fallout series isn't exactly known for its realism, but the Legion being as strong as they are in relation to the NCR is pushing it a bit much, even for Fallout's warped sense of reality.
Bravo Bravo!! Truly well put. Historic fact and a well spoken argument. Something rarely seen on these wiki talks.
And i get your point. The thing is though my counter argument is what people don't get:
1) The legion hasn't been fighting the NCR for long since after they go beat back at the Damn the first time they haven't had large scale war. They never had before the dam really cause all they were doing wast taking over tribes.
2) Also this is something people don't get these days because they believe in better is better but numbers are damn important and the legion has far more than the NCR.(personally I actually believe in better is better)
Herax 16:00, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the statement regarding numbers is true. An example is the Battle at Helios One. The Brotherhood of Steel had far more superior weapons and training, but the NCR had a lot more troops. And what happened? The Brotherhood lost control.
TheVaultDweller29 12:01, August 2, 2011
- Another thing to consider is that Roman Slavery wasn't as bad as modern slavery, at least in terms of it being a "dead-end job". Slaves were often freed, either by their masters or by purchasing their own freedom, and freed slaves became "limited citizens" or Freedmen. Children of Freedmen became full Roman citizens. While actually being a slave meant you were at the mercy of your owner, some owners treated their slaves rather well, to the point where some slaves would willingly die for their masters or "take an arrow" for a master. The Roman slavery system was radically different from the Spanish Empire's slavery or the slavery found in the American South: while a slave in those cultures might one day buy freedom, they were never accorded anything even close to the rights of Freedmen under the Romans. In essence the Roman system of slavery was built around the idea that one day a slave could be a fairly-equal citizen and his children could be full Roman citizens, a system which slaves could well rally around and defend. --Webgiant 17:01, February 7, 2011 (UTC)
Good to see this is a short Question...
One thing is that not all men in the group would have been legionnaires -- the Roman system has a 15 year work time. After this, they would go back to their home and do as they wished with a large estate. Also, those proven to be more useful at home, or from a rich family, would not have gone abroad, under the grounds they could do better at the homefront (the latter reason may not exist for the legion).
Also, the legion described by Caesar is a lot more like a Tribal Federation, as each individual tribe could self produce, so there would be no innovation. Also, NCR and others did not innovate much. Caesar's focus on melee and unarmed weaponry is excessive, sure, but he also trains specifically with guns and explosives (see his speech about his rise), and these things would counter a lot of the NCR's "strengths". He teaches them hand to hand and melee because they are more effective for raiding, supposedly.
Also, he attacked small tribes, absorbing them, up until his "Carthage". The main thing we must remember about Carthage and Rome is that Carthage almost beat Rome, but then the Romans undergone a massive military shakeup, and improved under pressure, and forced back and defeated Carthage. I think this is the similarity.
The Spanish use of Slavery and the lack of Revolution are not related. They simply just do not have a large link. Many people used slaves, in many countries, and they underwent revolution. Qing Empire, Brunei Empire, Incans, Mayans etc. were heavily out-teched; the opposition used weaponry that was never observed before, and it was scary. Horses even were seen as "devils" in some form. The problem is they got lax. They stopped expanding, and rested on their laurels; something Caesar hasn't done yet.
That's beside the point here. The OP's question was a relatively straightforward one; "Is it simply an issue of faction balance that the Legion is portrayed as being as strong as the NCR despite their serious deficiencies in many aspects, or is it some other factor?"
It's a valid question, because the idea that a war band of "rehabilitated" tribals pressed into service (often against their will) who are only partially equipped with firearms (and lever-actions at that) not only defeating a modern, industrialized army with mid-20th century assault rifles and even limited use of power armor in a conventional, set-piece battle, but outright conquering a large piece of their territory is rather humorous to me. I personally think it's a matter of balance, because it just wouldn't be a very good ending for the Legion if they simply maintained the status quo, which would clearly be in their interest.
It must have been difficult for the devs to come up with an ending for the Legion, because it is in the interest of every other faction to make radical changes to the status quo, while the Legion simply has to continue to exist and they will eventually gain the upper hand through attrition. I mean, it simply dosen't make sense that they would seek out a pitched battle at Hoover Dam a second time (and ironically, validate Oliver's 'wait and see' approach in the process) where their advantages were minimized and the NCR's strengths were maximized. Anyways, that's my two cents on this.
I'd say it has to do with the fact that the NCR troopers are cowards compared to legionaries. On one side you have civilians who have been pushed out into war after 2 months of basic training. On the other side, you have people who have been trained to kill the enemy for their whole life. Needless to say, the Legionaries make better soldiers than NCR troopers. Unlike the real life tribals OP mentioned, most, if not all legionaries have guns they know how to use. Also, the NCR troopers do NOT have assault rifles; service rifles are semi-automatic, not selective fire.
There is also a strange reversal in situation here. Usually, the real life tribals are outnumbered by real life civilized troops, as the real life civilized state can support a greater population; that is basic human geography. But Caesar's Legion, despite its relative primitivity, can still bring greater manpower to bear due to its vast territory; while the NCR controls the territory of 1 pre-war state (California), Caesar's Legion controls 4 (Arizona, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico).--Lolzarz (talk) 16:06, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Are Caesar's Legion Evil Or Very Evil?DMK961 14:29, December 4, 2010 (UTC)
Whats the difference? Very Evil i guess...
Herax 11:33, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Evil would kill a puppy, V evil would kick it first, then kill it...
Theres no such thing as "evil" theres only personal opinion.Ragedaoneanlonely 17:26, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
Caesars legion has neutral karma and the NCR has neutral karma.--Terminator512 13:00, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
Then there are those who kill, torture, enslave, destroy, and pillage. It doesn't matter if the GECK says that they are neutral; all of their actions seem pretty "evil" to me. Hell, if the fiends are evil, shouldn't they be?--For NCR 16:21, March 5, 2012 (UTC)
Caesar's Legion is evil beyond a whisper of a doubt. If slavery isn't evil, I don't know what is. Caesar is very evil, and so is the Legion as a whole. I slaughter Legion soldiers on site and have yet to create a character sympathetic to them.--Dan the Man
Slavery under the Roman Empire is much different from slavery in the United States. Funny how killing is 'evil' and yet killing 'evil people' is good. Remove the words and all you have is action, and that action is killing. I would say corruption is evil and that occurs a lot more in the NCR and than Caesar's Legion. Seriously, Caesar's Legion is almost the exact same as the Roman Empire, I hope people don't actually consider the Roman Empire 'evil'. 22.214.171.124 12:04, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
Companions that support Leigion in F:NV Edit
Haven't been through all of the companions, and don't really plan to, but do any actually support the legion? I haven't been through all of the dialogue trees, but most seem against, while Lily seems neutral, not sure about Raul.
Well of course the non-humanoid companions Rex and ED-E are neutral towards the Legion (as with every faction) Boone, being a former member of the NCR is strictly opposed to the legion and will shoot on sight. Arcade is also strictly opposed to the legion but will not shoot on sight (he will leave if you tell the remnants to fight for the legion, or if you start the battle for hoover dam fighting for the legion). Raul and Lily are neutral as is Cass, despite being an NCR citizen, Veronica doesnt have anything against the Legion, but she will leave after you destroy the Brotherhood bunker per Caesar's orders.
Cass however will be very likely to leave you since most of Caesar's tasks will cost you Karma. Such a shame you can't hire any Legion Friendly Companion.
- Raul is also Neutral so to speak, he isn't a true legion fanatic but he does see the Legion as a group that keeps things constantly in order. If you want a "chaotic" Legion friendly follower, a fully berserk Lily with Rex is the way to go while if you want a friendly "lawful" Legion follower, Raul will suffice. Gyrobot 06:00, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
Rex is pro-legion to me, just because in his ending it says "his mind melded well with Lupa's brain due to his own experiences with the legion". All other options say he has difficulty, or it takes time. Still he's a dog so a little hard to really gauge.
Exclusives perks/items/*things* from Caesar's Legion Edit
Well, Lucius gives you the key to the Legion's safehouse and also teaches you the Legion Assault and these things are obtainable only by being somewhat friendly to the Legion. I don't really like the Legion and don't want to do quests for them, but still I want what they can give, everything that's not XP, loot or caps (well, denarii, ok): for example, the machete "Liberator" etc. A list of these things could be really useful --Niflheimr 01:06, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
A very bad joke Edit
Here is a terrible, last second joke: What is Caesar's favorite food? Caesar salad! Man, is that poor or what?--Blahmarrow 00:46, February 16, 2011 (UTC)
theres a bag of "ceasar croutons" in my parents pantry, everytimg i see it i say "NOOOOOOO WHAT DID THEY DO TO CAESAR!? " Robco Man 17:12, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
the NCR flag depicts a 2 headed bear yet no mutated 2 headed bears exists the legion has a single headed bull yet bramin all have two heads i dont know if this was intentional
3 day warning??? Edit
I kill these guys on sight and am vilified. Will I receive a warning from because I really wanna see what these pansies have really got haha :P--126.96.36.199 22:46, April 15, 2011 (UTC) 1st recon ncr sniper
I slaughter all enemies of the legion I see on sight.--Terminator512 13:06, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
A word on homosexuality Edit
I believe that Jimmy, as well as Cass, and Knight are correct. While Jimmy claims that it is punishable by death, and Cass and Knight say it is tolerated, it may be that while a homosexual union or full term relationship is prohibited; the actual conduct of homosexual intercourse is not punishable. That is to say, a man is supposed to breed to make more soldiers, as is common with most pre-feudal and feudal empires, but his right to have sex with anyone is uninhibited, so long as he abides by his duty of procreating. This was a common practice in both ancient Rome and early japan, where a man would have a wife at home, but would form intimate relationships with his companion soldiers while away at war. AryeonosWhat!? 19:18, April 21, 2011 (UT19:18, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
- It's possible, but there is very little in-game evidence to support that... YuriKaslov 19:19, April 21, 2011 (UTC)
Grand Canyon or Divide ? Edit
Graham was thrown into the Grand Canyon, then why is it linked as the Divide? This will add confusion, since people might think it is the Great Divide (of which at this point we are not sure where exactly that is). It should be changed so the hyperlink says Grand Canyon.
No, they are two different places and have two different pages(Grand Canyon and Great Divide respectively), so the hyperlink should be changed from Divide(not the Great Divide) to the Grand Canyon.
- After completing Honest Hearts I can say that the Great Divide is not the Grand Canyon. Graham states that it is in/ near Death Valley.
Are Legion Explorers gernerally a tad... confused? Great Mara 20:39, May 23, 2011 (UTC)
Mad Max Reference Edit
Is it just me or do most of the legion soldiers look a lot like those bad cop guys from the Mad Max 2?
- Possibly, just like raiders. On the other hand, it is a fairly common post-apocalyptic design choice these days. - Redmess (talk) 21:23, August 4, 2012 (UTC)
replacing background section with description from game guide Edit
There is already a dedicated history page that covers the history of Ceasar's Legion. What I did was just replaced the background section with this quote from the Prima guide. It was a bit more compact, but I don't see any faction-oriented bias in it since it's a direct quite from the official game guide. I think it should be put in the Background section instead, and leave the detailed history for that dedicated history page of the Legion-
This horde of cruel, yet highly disciplined slavers has spread across the southwest like an all-consuming flame. Founded by a fallen member of the Followers of the Apocalypse, Caesar’s Legion is effectively an enormous, conscripted slave army. As Caesar conquers the peoples of the wasteland, he strips them of their tribal identities and turns their young men into ruthless legionaries and women into breeding stock. Unlike the rag-tag Raiders back east, Caesar’s “legionaries” neither look nor act like haphazard, irregular troops. They are well-organized, moving and attacking in large packs, and deliberately commit atrocities to terrorize those who might dare to oppose them.
True, Caesar is the perfect man. But he is not just a man: he is the Son of Mars, ordained by the god of war to conquer all of Earth. To prepare the way, Mars razed the Earth, cleansed it with fire, and brought the weak and the wicked low; and now his son has come to deliver the wasteland from chaos and barbarism. To follow Caesar is to obey the will of Mars; to disobey is to condemn oneself to death. As the Son of Mars, Caesar has the divine right to demand servitude from all he encounters. Not everyone believes that Caesar is the product of a god’s loins, of course. The most recently captured slaves tend to be pretty skeptical. But they aren’t very vocal in their criticisms, and their children are raised not by skeptical parents but by priestesses appointed to that task by virtue of their knowledge of and adherence to the state religion.
Nearly all physically capable, compliant males are compelled to serve in its armed forces. The primary value of pre-menopausal females is to serve as breeding stock (with Caesar or a legate governing how they are assigned to males), though they, like older females and less physically-capable men, are also used to perform a variety of other tasks. The largest unit of organization in Caesar’s Legion is the Cohort, numbering about 480 infantrymen. Cohorts are further divided into Centuriae, which contrary to their name numbers about 80 men, and each Centuriae is divided into ten “tent groups” (Contubernia), making this the squad level of organization. Raiding parties are of this size (about eight men) and will be led by a Decanus (a squad leader, basically).
Caesar desires two things: a Carthage, and a Rome. In the NCR he has at last found a grand adversary, against which he can wage a military campaign worthy of history books. And in Vegas, powered and watered by its great dam, he has found a capital worthy of, well, a Caesar. Contrary to the old saw, Rome will be built in a day. All it takes is plentiful slave labor, and Caesar has that in spades.”— Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide, on Caesar's Legion
- Not familiar with the concept of copyright infringement, are we? Tagaziel (call!) 14:55, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
- They were all cited. Eddo36 (talk) 15:00, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
- Lifting entire segments of the guide and copy pasting them is infringement, citation or not. Tagaziel (call!) 15:14, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
- They were all cited. Eddo36 (talk) 15:00, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
I removed Aurelius as reference for cannibalism within Caesar's Legion. The strange meat in his office was removed by a patch and the list of known cannibals on the actual Cannibalism-page has been edited accordingly ages ago. ~A
Mara and Inquistor stop warring Edit
Something to add to Notes Edit
Note, Canyon Runner also says that homosexuality is punishable by death, further supporting the idea that the rumor of homosexuality in the Legion is a long running rumor within the NCR and Mojave.
A small addition to the Notes sectionEdit
Under Notes, specifically where it talks about female Couriers being unable to fight in the arena, there should be another subnote along with the one mentioning being able to fight Benny that a female Courier can also fight Lupa in the arena if they can convince Antony to give Rex Lupa's brain during the quest Nothin' But a Hound Dog.
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