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Weapon comparisons and repair lists and bears, Oh My!

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As some of you may have noticed, I have been replacing the hand-coded weapon comparison tables on FO3 and FNV pages with the new {{Weapon comparison table}} template. Things were progressing nicely, albeit with a few minor bumps in the road. See, the way we determine which weapons get compared in the tables is by checking the repair lists. If weapon A and weapon B is in repair list C, then they get put in the same table. Normally, this is not a problem, but every now and then you get some weirdness, like Old Glory being in a comparison table with the pool cue and throwing spear. I was plugging along nicely, almost done my my little mini-project when I removed the tri-beam laser rifle from the laser rifle table. See, it's not in the laser rifle repair list. Along came Js, and he suggested that it stay in the table with the other laser rifles, in spite of it not qualifying by being in the repair list.

Hmm, I thought. He's right. Using the repair tables as a means to determine which weapons should be compared is pretty arbitrary. Due to limitations in how the game files interact with each other, the repair lists don't always have similar weapons in them and sometimes have unrelated weapons in them. Just in case you're wondering exactly which weapons are in each repair list, here's the lists for both games:

Repair list

If we use the repair lists as criteria for inclusion in the comparison tables, then weapons like the tri-beam won't be in with the regular laser rifle, the multiplas rifle won't be with the other plasma rifles and so on, while the bear trap fist will be in with the power fists and some weapons, like the 25mm grenade APW (GRA) and X-2 antenna, won't be in any comparison tables. I've got some ideas on how we should do this, but before I elaborate on them, I'd like to ask you all these questions:

  1. What are users looking for when they come here to the weapon pages and wish to see weapons compared to each other?
  2. What is the information that they desire and how do we structure that information so they have easy access to it?
  3. What types/kinds of weapons should be compared to each other?

Keep in mind this information: The weapon overview pages for each game already have the weapons broken down by skill and general type, i.e. Guns/pistols, Melee/blunt. I don't want to duplicate comparisons for entire classes of weapons. The comparison table template I made will support up to 10 weapons, though, so we have some flexibility in how many weapons we can compare. Please leave your thoughts on the questions I posed above and then perhaps we can discuss exactly how we want to group these weapons for comparison after we agree on this.

Comments to the questions posed aboveEdit

I think what users may want to see in comparisons is the performance (i.e. rate of fire, base damage etc.) of that certain weapon and how it would stack up against others, and which elements of weapon performance would a certain weapon excel and fall short in. Comparison tables should be easy to read, easily comprehensible, and quickly allow a user to determine what aspects (numbers) of a weapon are higher than another weapon and which ones are lower. There may be more to compare, but I think the most prevalent is weapon performance. As to which ones being compared, I'd say ones in a.) Similar price range, and b.) Similar degree of availability. --Skire (talk) 17:43, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Sig. The second part of your comment is the type of input I'm looking for. As far as the data itself we'll compare, the table template is already done and quite comprehensive. It will compare all that you mention. The information I'm looking for now is more along the lines of "Which weapons should be compared to each other and why?". The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg 17:53, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
Hm, it seems the issue here is similarity. I think we should compare weapons which require certain skill but also have some value (pool cue isn't nearly effective as Old Glory). {{SUBST:Signature|Energy X}} 19:11, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

( We shouldn't make the comparison tables too long, people will lose oversight. The comparison tables using the repair list is a pretty good standard, from which we can deviate from on a case to case base, like with the tri-beam laser rifle. Wouldn't change or add too much anymore. Jspoel Speech Jspoel 19:02, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that starting with the repair lists, at least the ones that make sense, is a good starting point. But what about the 13 weapons from FO3, that include some favorites like the Gauss rifle, the shishkebab, railway rifle, dart gun, Rock-it launcher, Tesla cannon and double-barreled shotgun, or the 39 weapons in FNV that aren't being compared to other weapons, or the 9 more that are only compared to their GRA counterparts? If we stay with using only the repair lists as the basis, these weapons, which include some favorites like the holorifle, trail carbine, assault carbine, plamsa defender, etc... are not being compared to anything. The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg 20:13, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with the general consensus of simplicity. People do just want to know the basic comparisons of weapon performance. Gunny: As for that, perhaps a comparison to the closest type could be done, or none at all. As much as we want a comparison with weapons, sometimes it isn't feasible to do so.--Bunny2Bubble 22:58, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the input so far, guys. What I'm hearing is
A. Keep it simple.
B. Compare weapons of:
1. Similar cost.
2. Similar availability.
3. Similar skill.
4. Similar type.
And obviously add to that any uniques of common variants. Is there anything else? Anyone else wish to chip in? I'm all ears. Like I said, I've got a few simple ideas, but I want as much feedback as possible to make sure what I propose is what the community thinks is best. The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg 01:20, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with general view, to an extent. Though I do believe general visitors to the pages want to see just basic rudimentary comparisons (damage, rate of fire, critical damage, et cetera) I think a more sparse comparison option could be available, or put in the the final system for this.

I think a comparable option should be available for those who want to understand a full build of the weapons, which includes perks, additional armour, skill changes or affects and so on. Where as the initial comparison of, for example, a 10mm pistol and Hunting Rifle may show a higher damage output per shot but with certain perks and ammunition it could drastically show a different statistic for the two weapons. This, I feel, gives users a much wider choice of comparison and understanding, of course making this user friendly and feasible is another matter but I still think that limiting options to basics could have a detrimental effect on the true comparison of weapons. Neko-signature Gothic NekoNeko's Haunt 01:44, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

You seemed to like my idea of adding in weapons tables on ammo pages of weapons that use that ammo for people like me who like to optimize their usage of the ammo at question.

And I know you said there was issues regarding putting in a subscript to Gun Runners Arsenal (GRA) weapons that redundantly copied the stats of their non-GRA equivalents as it would screw up or not represent the links to their respectful pages. But I strongly think that they should be implemented to free up some space on tables involving statistically equivalent (GRA) weapons and continue with the idea that they'll lose interest or oversight upon seeing long tables.

Just a thought, from --The Ever Ruler (talk) 02:27, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Are we just making this a bit complicated. The comparison table should be a statical comparison of the weapons listed in the variants section, that's why it is a sub-section of the variants section. As for the variants list, that has generally been based on lore for weapon type. User avatar tagUser Avatar talk 19:38, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Proposed changesEdit

Although I was open to the possibility of making greater changes, after taking everyone's input into consideration I would like to propose some minor changes to a few of the comparison tables. Keeping to the basis of comparing weapon variants listed in the parent section, the use of repair lists to populate those variant lists and for the sake of simplicity, there are only a few that I would like to modify. I'll list them here (at the bottom of the forum page for ease of editing comments) for any input. Other than making sure the variants lists are populated with the appropriate weapons from the repair lists, these are the only changes I'm proposing for comparison tables on individual weapon pages.

Comments on proposed changesEdit

FO3Edit

Existing comparison tables
Small Guns/Lever-action rifle (2)
Lever-action riflefo3plGametitle-FO3 PL
Backwater riflefo3plGametitle-FO3 PL
-
Small Guns/Sawed-off shotgun (2)
Sawed-off shotgun
The Kneecapper
-
Energy Weapons/Alien blaster (2)
Alien blaster
Firelance
-
Energy Weapons/Laser rifle (3)
Laser rifle
Wazer Wifle
Metal Blasterfo3tpGametitle-FO3 TP
-
Proposed comparison tables
Small Guns/Lever-action rifle (3)
Lever-action riflefo3plGametitle-FO3 PL
Backwater riflefo3plGametitle-FO3 PL
Lincoln's repeater
Small Guns/Sawed-off shotgun (3)
Sawed-off shotgun
The Kneecapper
Double-barrel shotgunfo3plGametitle-FO3 PL
Energy Weapons/Alien blaster (3)
Alien blaster
Firelance
Captain's sidearmfo3mzGametitle-FO3 MZ
Energy Weapons/Laser rifle (4)
Laser rifle
Wazer Wifle
Metal Blasterfo3tpGametitle-FO3 TP
Tri-beam laser riflefo3bsGametitle-FO3 BS

FNVEdit

Existing comparison tables
Energy Weapons/Laser rifle (3)
Laser rifle
AER14 prototype
Van Graff laser rifle
-
-
Energy Weapons/Plasma rifle (3)
Plasma rifle
Q-35 matter modulator
Van Graff plasma rifle
-
Melee/Pool cue (3)
Pool cue
Throwing spear
Old GloryfnvlrGametitle-FNV LR
Melee/Hatchet (2)
Hatchet
TomahawkfnvhhGametitle-FNV HH
-
Unarmed/Boxing gloves (2)
Boxing gloves
Golden Gloves
-
Proposed comparison tables
Energy Weapons/Laser rifle (5)
Laser rifle
AER14 prototype
Van Graff laser rifle
Tri-beam laser rifle
Tri-beam laser rifle (GRA)fnvgraGametitle-FNV GRA
Energy Weapons/Plasma rifle (4)
Plasma rifle
Q-35 matter modulator
Van Graff plasma rifle
Multiplas rifle
Melee/Pool cue (none)
Remove comparison
none of these weapons
make sense to compare
Melee/Hatchet (3)
Hatchet
TomahawkfnvhhGametitle-FNV HH
Throwing hatchet
Unarmed/Boxing gloves (3)
Boxing gloves
Golden Gloves
Boxing tape

Just thought of something that might throw a spanner in the works, where does cut content come into this? User avatar tagUser Avatar talk 22:04, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Cut content is not on any comparison tables. It is on the weapon overview page tables for each game, but in it's own section. I imagine this is because cut content is only available to the PC users who are inclined to add the content themselves, a rather small segment of the user base. The same goes for non-playable content. I struggled to come up with a reasonable reason to include either cut or non-playable content, given the prevailing consensus. Spanner. Heh.:P The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg 00:55, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
You can go ahead with those proposed changes, Gunny. I can see you put a lot of work and thought in it and I trust your insight. Jspoel Speech Jspoel 19:27, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

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