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Forums: Index > Wiki discussion > Reference Policy Proposal


Hi Everyone,

We've previously talked about our upcoming changes to referencing. We're a wiki that is well known for our standards, and as such I have a proposed draft reference policy. Its my hope we can implement this without a vote, but alternative methods of community consensus.

Please read through it, and comment. Agent c (talk) 04:32, January 30, 2014 (UTC) (and thanks to The Ever Ruler for his work on this too).

Policy Working Draft[]

General Principle[]

All but the most trivial and obvious of facts should be referenced where possible. The sources for these facts should be included on the wiki, and indexed for ease of verification and for future use.

Facts which are controversial or non obvious should have the Verification Required template added unless there is adequate referencing. This should be added to any new edits before a page is patrolled.

New Content[]

Sourcing[]

  • Acceptable sources, depending on the context include dialogue files, developer statements, manuals and guidebooks. This list is non exhaustive.
    • Care should be taken when using out-of-game sources (such as developer statements) as they are not mirrored through in-game content in many cases and are subject to particular developer opinion. Later developers may or may not also feel bound by their choices and/or take into account other developers' choices. This is particularly true of the Fallout Bible where some of its statements are now clearly contradicted by later games, and others remain unclear.
    • Care should be used with dialogue files, as these reflect the knowledge that the character of the dialogue file has and may be incorrect or incomplete.
    • Care should be used with supplementary items such as comics and strategy guides. These are often completed before development is complete (so some things may have changed between the supplementary items sign off and the eventual "gold" version of the game), and as out of game future developers may or may not feel bound by them.
  • First hand research (e.g. asking a developer a question, extracting game files or experimentation in game) is permitted. However the source, as much as possible must be uploaded to the wiki and included in the reference library. If using a developer email, you should ensure that you receive permission to copy their communication to the wiki in complete state (less any irrelevant or personal information).
  • Facts which are added without adequate sourcing should have appropriate "update", "citation required" or "verification required". Unproven items may be removed after a certain period (not less than 2 weeks unless contradictory information is known). For facts that prexist this implementation, please see the legacy content section.

Referencing[]

  • Sources should typically be added in one of the two permitted styles
    • The "short term" referencing format is for where use of dialogue files or adding the primary source is not immediately possible. The intention is that any content with this type of reference should be replaced when practical.
    • The "long term" referencing option is for where primary sources are available. This is the preferred referencing format, and all references should be converted to this form where practical.
  • Not all items have both types, the short term is an interim format. Any item type displaying just one should be taken to understand the format given is the long term format.
  • The Extended reference format can be used for more complicated claims. This is an extension to the previous styles.

Dialogue/Game Files[]

  • The correct short term referencing format for dialogue is:
(Character name), (Game name), (Location - only if found in multiple locations), (Preceding Player Character Dialogue Option), (Character Response in full).
  • The correct long term referencing format is:
(Character name), (Game name), (File extracted from), (Complete dialogue line as found in the file).
  • For other files (not holodisks, or in game books, etc)
(File name), (Game name), (location/snippet)
  • It is preferred that the file be linked, ideally to a direct link to the dialogue line.

In game events[]

  • Where an event is demonstrated in game, the correct referring format is
Events of (Game Name), (location and trigger information if a triggerable event).
  • Cut scenes or other Full motion video should be
(File Title), (Game Name), (Any timing relevant information), (any relevant dialogue).
  • If possible, dialogue and/or cut scenes should be preferred over an "events of" reference.

Written Words[]

  • Where the document is present, or can be uploaded to the wiki, it should be linked and included in the reference library.
  • The correct format for out of game books, bibles, or other documents are:
(Book or document name), (page or heading if possible), sample of text.
  • In game books, holodisks, etc, should be formatted similarly to dialogue files
  • The Correct Short Term format is:
(Document name), (Game name), (Document Location), (Heading or other information to identify its location), (Sample of text)
  • The Correct Long Term format is:
(Document name), (Game name), (File name), (Sample of Text).
  • Do not upload game guides (for copyright reasons).

Developers[]

  • Website q+a's should be copied and uploaded with as much of a snippet to confirm the information only included (not the whole page - care should be taken just to include the relevant forum post or paragraphs only to ensure that this is valid fair use) where possible, and formatted thusly
(Website name, with link to original page), (Developer name), Sample of text, (Link to local sample).
  • Emails should be uploaded to the wiki, and referenced as
(Developer name), Email with (collectors name), (Sample), (link to uploaded copy).
    • It is permissible (and recommended) to redact personal information included, or any off topic information in the email, as long as the source and information can be included.*
    • It is not permissible to add a footnote from a developer email that is not uploaded for future verification. We can't "take your word for it" that Y said X no matter how reliable you may otherwise be as an editor.
  • Podcasts, and other out of game video and audio files should be referenced as
(File Title), (Game Name), (Any timing relevant information), (any relevant dialogue).
    • These should also be uploaded if possible under copyright law.

How to footnote[]

  • References are included in REF tags <ref>Your reference here</ref>. They should be placed at the end of the block of information (paragraph) that makes claims referable by sources.
  • At the end of the page, you should include {{References}} under its own heading (==References==) to make the footnotes display.
  • If a later block of information uses the same text or has its claims reorganized, it is permitted to use the same footnote. If new information is added the footnotes must be updated to reflect the new information.
  • Ibid and other common footnote shorthands should never be used, as our footnotes are automatically generated and future edits may place other footnotes in later. Content organization also relies upon our footnote information.
  • Footnote style is crucial to implement but not necessarily to-the-letter. If you are unsure how it works, just place the source and location in the source to the best of your abilities for the claim it supports and another editor will verify/refine it themselves.

Extended reference format[]

For more complex claims, it may be required to point to either multiple documents, multiple places in the same document, or perhaps even both. The extended reference format deals with these issues.

As an example, here's a citation for a paragraph with a total of four claims and three sources that provide support for various claims in the paragraph: <ref>

[[First source (dialogue file Fallout 1/Fallout 2)]]: (Core reference as above)

For claim 1, see Lines 116 & 166.
For claim 2, see Lines 52 - 56, 70, & 90.

[[Second source (dialogue file Fallout: Tactics)#header of character who says it]]: (Possible source information)

For claim 1, see Situation A01.
For claim 4, see Situation B02.

[[Third source (Fallout Bible)#header closest to information]]: (Possible source information)

For claim 2, see response to, "What happened...".

[[Third source (Fallout Bible)#header closer to -this- information]]:(Possible source information. If information has not changed for the same source listed above, do NOT reiterate)

For claim 3, see paragraph 2, sentence 3.

</ref>

Note: dialogue files for Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas have yet to be compiled and organized in a standard format. Footnote style will be updated upon implementation of these dialogue files.

Legacy Content[]

Legacy content is any information that was added to the wiki before the implementation of this policy.

Much of the Wiki's content, as this policy was implemented, is not up to the above standards. This section deals with how to treat it until it can be corrected.

  • Existing content where possible should be verified rather than removed. It should only be removed if debunked, or a thorough search has failed to show any attributable source.
  • Unnaceptable references should be updated to current standards where possible or otherwise removed. The content itself (rather than the footnote) however should remain subject to the point above.
    • This is particularly true for references that only refer to a previous admin's email with no copy of the email available. As these are not verifiable they are not acceptable references.
  • The {{Verification needed}} template should not be used on legacy content at this time - this would just create too much clutter in articles. Use {{Citation needed}} instead. This may be reviewed later on as referencing standards improve.

Suggestions for changes and comments[]

I have actually wanted this for a while now. I have read through every section on the proposal and I agree with every bit of it. Chad, TER, damn good job to both of you. You have my full support on this. Toci US Air Force Into the wild blue yonder... 05:56, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, excellent. Now this is a downtime project I can sink my teeth in to. --TwoBearsHigh-Fiving Intercom01 06:10, January 30, 2014 (UTC)

I feel it necessary to point an issue this proposal aims to rectify as stated in this paragraph:

It is not permissible to add a footnote from a developer email that is not uploaded for future verification. We can't "take your word for it" that Y said X no matter how reliable you may otherwise be as an editor.

This issue was brought up to Jspoelstra on his talk page (the message can be found here: [1]) and I feel the wording of the message defines the issue without me reinstating it here.

I have brought this specific issue up in chat and was informed by Gunny that there is no easy way to locate these citations by Ausir and that removing them at this moment would require a fine-combing of the wiki which will realistically take a long time.

Basically, this issue is not one that can be solved quickly should we decide to remove these particular citations and I would like to spare some attention toward it so if we do decide to remove them, we can start the slow process of removing them now instead of later. --The Ever Ruler (talk) 00:02, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

TL;DR, but I'm ready to contribute to referencing and citations anyway I possibly can. Enclavesymbol 18:16, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Uh, consider this a Yes The Gunny  UserGunny chevrons 23:53, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
Hm, I feel references should be best used for info that is not known widely. That said, in my opinion, referencing should be when inserting a speculative info that is correct and has a source. Usually that would apply for developer citations, info from message caches from Fallout and Fallout 2 etc. Energy X 21:59, February 3, 2014 (UTC)


Multiple referencing[]

For more complex claims, it may be required to point to either multiple documents, multiple places in the same document, or perhaps even both. The extended reference format deals with these issues.

As an example, here's a citation for a paragraph with a total of four claims and three sources that provide support for various claims in the paragraph:

<ref> [[First source (dialogue file Fallout 1/Fallout 2)]]: (Core reference as above)

For claim 1, see Lines 116 & 166.
For claim 2, see Lines 52 - 56, 70, & 90.

If, instead of multiple dialogue files, the references were from multiple, say multiple (outsite) forum threads, how would we go about referencing it in this style?
Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 20:03, February 1, 2014 (UTC)

If lines in sources are not specified with a number then copy and pasting the specific excerpt would be the best course of action. The only reason they aren't always the best course of action is because they could bog down our references section or, worse yet, be a false excerpt that everyone trusts but then fails the fact check. Even the line numbers aren't perfect in this regard as we still need to see how the line correlates with the claim(s) they are related to.
In the event of a forum being a source the best course would be to link to the forum comment in question if possible. If not, then a link to the forum thread and an excerpt of what was said.
I'm going to add a condensed wording of this to the proposal if there are no more questions in the immediate future. --The Ever Ruler (talk) 20:39, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
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