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* {{no}} [[file:MadeMan2.png|20px|link=User:Scarface11235]][[User talk:Scarface11235|<font color= "Purple"> <sup>''"Say 'ello to my little friend!"''</sup> </font>]] - I dare say that the quote from his debate above is reason enough. Administrators can not allow themselves to lose composure to such a degree, and outright insulting another user like that is unacceptable.
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* {{neutral}} [[file:MadeMan2.png|20px|link=User:Scarface11235]][[User talk:Scarface11235|<font color= "Purple"> <sup>''"Say 'ello to my little friend!"''</sup> </font>]] - I dare say that the quote from his debate above is reason enough. Administrators can not allow themselves to lose composure to such a degree, and outright insulting another user like that is unacceptable.
 
* {{no}} My reasons were explained in the posts below [[User:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> '''Limmiegirl''' </font>]][[file:Lildeneb.jpg|20px|link=http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Limmiegirl]][[User talk:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> <sup>''Talk! ♪''</sup> </font>]]
 
* {{no}} My reasons were explained in the posts below [[User:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> '''Limmiegirl''' </font>]][[file:Lildeneb.jpg|20px|link=http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Limmiegirl]][[User talk:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> <sup>''Talk! ♪''</sup> </font>]]
 
* {{neutral}} I;m gong to leave this for a few days to let it settle then give a final vote. [[User:KiwiBird|<span style="Color:BLUE"><SMALL>'''The Australian Kiwi'''</SMALL></span>]]
 
* {{neutral}} I;m gong to leave this for a few days to let it settle then give a final vote. [[User:KiwiBird|<span style="Color:BLUE"><SMALL>'''The Australian Kiwi'''</SMALL></span>]]

Revision as of 11:53, 24 March 2012

Forums: Index > Wiki discussion > Reconfirmation request: Yes-Man

I put this up, in light of recent events, to ask the community if Yes-Man should keep his adminship. He clearly overreacted in a way that has been described as a "tantrum" or "fit", blatantly insulted other users and pulled yet another of our wiki's patented drama stunts in "leaving until Cartman! is gone."

I have set up this forum to, as I mentioned earlier, ask what this community wants.

MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!"

Does Yes-Man keep any his adminship responsibilities? Yes or no?

Yes-Man's response

Ahem.
Okay then. I don't really know where to start with this. First off, I would like to apologise that this got out of hand. What started as a heated discussion between Cartman and myself led to me becoming extremely upset, and has brought the whole Wiki to deal with the issue. At the end of the day, this is a Wiki dedicated to video games and you shouldn't have to deal with our emotional problems.

However, let me say one thing. I find it... appalling that Cartman has gone around for so long, insulting people in his so-called "debates"; the way he gives people shit for liking Fallout 3 or disliking Fallout 1, Fallout 2 and New Vegas, but gets away with doing the opposite for God knows why. The way he always finds a way to get out of punishment by posting one of his long comments, where he paints himself to be the hero and makes the opposition out to be the bad guy. He never owns up for what he does because he knows that no matter what, he's always going to get away with it. And the one time I stand up against him I'm suddenly the villain. I don't see any logic in that. For Cartman, it's either you conform to his standpoint or you're free game for him to hate on your taste in a video game.

Let me remind you all. Cartman was protesting equality for users. He knew that the rule was going to jeopardise the fact that he's the tough, Fallout 3 hating admin who everyone loves to hate, so he protested it. Completely selfish. He went on to defend the fact that he insults people for liking Fallout 3, that it was a "debate". Well, news flash folks. It takes two people to debate a topic. What we constantly see is Cartman insulting users and their opinions in a one-sided argument where he's just telling them how much Fallout 3 sucks or how stupid they are for liking something that he doesn't like. And he gets away with it because he's just an admin who's debating. Bullshit.

Now, I remember some of you, including Limmie (who has voted against me) and even Cartman himself to say that although we're admins we cannot be expected to stay neutral and act professional all the time. Because it is true that we're humans. But when I do it, it's bad. Tell me, how come it's bad when I express my emotions with good reason but it's okay for others to do it? Now do you see the issue with equality on this Wiki, the same issue that got me here in the first place? It hurts that all I want to do is help this community to get together, but I am met with angry mobs over one little mistake.

And I agree that I made a mistake. I will not tell you that I think insulting him was a good thing. I'm not, as Limmie put it, acting up so that you'll all have a big party when I return. I'm genuinely angry at Cartman's behaviour, and although I'm an admin I have a breaking point. I couldn't sit back and listen to his veiled insults towards me any longer. I wasn't going to let him have his hypocritical, self-righteous bullshit thrown at me in his attempt to get me upset. Notice how he suddenly gave up replying after I went off the deep end? Doesn't it strike you as odd that he waited for me to get upset before giving up? He was pushing me to this. He wanted me to make myself the fool so that he once again gets away scott-free and keeps the Wiki the way he wants it.

If you had actually read the forum, and not just go off Scarface's completely one-sided write-up of this re-confirmation request (he adds an incriminating quote from me, then tells us that he thinks I'm not a good example of an admin; however Cartman's is completely neutral with no evidence of his offences) then you would know that Cartman was in fact pushing me into doing this. Pushing me the same way he pushed Zerginfestor to the point where Zerg was banned. He was constantly belittling my intelligence in his smug, smart-assed nature, by posting definitions to obvious words for me, by telling me that I don't make sense and I'm a hypocrite, and then when I defend myself he tells me that I'm a troll who deserves to be banned when he was the one who instigated my behaviour. And may I remind you that he called me a "disgusting" troll BEFORE I outright insulted him as you can see above.

If you don't want me as an administrator, fine. But I'll tell you what,
It's me or Cartman. Your choice. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk

Votes

Note that as of a decree by Kingclyde, all votes must be properly supported by an, at least brief, explanation as to why said vote was cast. All votes lacking said motivation will be counted as null.


  • Neutral MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!" - I dare say that the quote from his debate above is reason enough. Administrators can not allow themselves to lose composure to such a degree, and outright insulting another user like that is unacceptable.
  • No My reasons were explained in the posts below Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪
  • Neutral I;m gong to leave this for a few days to let it settle then give a final vote. The Australian Kiwi
  • No Shame, but we can't have admins spazzing out because of a measly argument. If any other user would have done it, they would have been long gone. I feel people take things on the internet way too seriously. CaesarLegionSymbol Pony of the East CaesarLegionSymbol 22:25, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes Though they both are in the wrong, we are human and we have emotions. We can't act like a robot and expect to be professional 24/7. ToCxHawK 22:54, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
  • Neutral I agree with a sanction, but I cant vote for back to regular user status. Yessie has been a big contributor to the wiki, this lapse of judgement I would point out was an effort to try and solve some problems on the wiki. We cant expect people to be perfect 100% of the time, lets nots forget the other 99% of the time when we vote. Agent c 23:13, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
  • No Inexcusable behavior from someone in a leadership position. The Gunny 380px-USMC-E7 svg 00:16, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes Yes, I know that yes man's behavior wasn't acceptable; BUT I agree with his standing on cartman. I have had "Debates" with him before and always feel downright insulted in the end. Plus, Yes man has been a very big contributor to the wiki, why would we get rid of him now after he has done nothing else like this? Hope to have you back yessie! The Enclave shall prevail! 00:22, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes First off, he made a mistake, are we going to do this everytime someone makes a mistake? Rob is a great, community minded adminstrator, and should be seen for that rather than this outburst. I have seen admins on here slip up and slip up. But that's part of being human isn't it? The way I see it, this is for Cartman and Yessie to solve, two adminstrators, two humans who both make mistakes.--Bunny2Bubble 00:28, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes Even thought I don't agree with Yessie's outburst with Cartman, I think we should be able to look past this...hes a good admin overall, he just slipped up, we all do it and we are all human, and like a few others have said, this is for yes-man, and Cartman to figure out on their own, and as long as they do that I don't see an issue.--Emiko~<3 00:37, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
  • YesIve known Yessie for a while, everyone does have a breaking point where they can have a little outburst, although i found his retalliation at blocking himself to be a bit drastic, as Jspoel said but to me he just needed to have some space to cool off, end of the day anybody can have little outbursts like that, my boss for example or me at customers at my job rofl.AaaaaTheNemesisx 00:49, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes I have seen the posts associated with this on Yes-Man's side of things and I must say that fighting fire with fire in cases like this is definitely not the way to go. However, I have never really noticed any similar outburts from Yessie and expect he'll take this a learning experience. I don't feel that he would repeat such actions after having a reprimand given. User:Great_MaraMessage 01:46, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
  • Neutral Normally I would vote yes, but this whole "either Cartman or Me" attitude is very childish, so its made me question your suitability. BILLYOCEAN Wanna talk? 01:58, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
  • No Typically I would have expected much better out of somebody like Yes-Man, especially considering his new Administrator powers. An Administrator plays a significant part in our community, for both the rule enforcement on users and an example for them to follow, but by his actions and behaviour in these recent events he has shown to not be a good example for other users. It is only fair that reprimands be made as a result of his insults, though out of character, and clearly he was provoked by Cartman into doing so, I find it no excuse for him to post such comments and de-baseless accusations against other users. I had hoped more from him, though as this is a vote of no confidence I find myself voting no. User:Gothic_NekoNeko's Haunt 03:31, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes Well, I guess it's my turn to enter this melting pot. I finally got around to reading the 'Mutual Understanding' forum page and I have to say, I don't see why Yes-Man is being put up for this one instance. Why the community wants to make an example of him like this is just beyond me. I mean seriously, Yessie is an outstanding admin, only a fool would say otherwise, so why is he not held to the same standards as another admin? I didn't want to have to pick a side with this but I've seen enough. Cart can be a real (pardon my French) DICK sometimes, but, being an admin, I've never seen anyone snap at him or report his behavior or anything similar. Anyways, that's my two cents on the subject. I am voting here because I feel that this really ISN'T necessary and I am trying to defend the powers that he EARNED. Other than that, I want to stay neutral in this. Thanks. -- Bacon-Man Talk to me goose! 04:45, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
  • Neutral I don't want Yessie to get his adminship revoked, and I don't want him to leave either, but if he really IS leaving for good then there would be no point in him staying admin. --    Contr        KOROMO        Talk      07:13, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

Comments

Sorry, your giving him 7 days without him even knowing? Just when I think I get you Al... Φύλαξ [~μίλησε μου~] 19:57, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I can vote, but I can leave my opinion here. I just read through that endlessly long forum thread about mutual understanding, which has clearly turned out for the worse. I for one can very well understand how Yes Man got to the point where he reached the boiling point. Cartman! has a natural ability to find a way with words to get people there. As I see it, it was a build up of things that lead to Yes Man's final comment. Considering the situation I don't even think it's block worthy. Ever since the split Yes Man has done a lot for the community and has continued to do so. He really doesn't deserve to lose his adminship over this. Jspoel Speech Jspoel 20:01, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
Sorry then, Ci, I just put this out, I can't be expected to get everything right, can I? Stop taking moral high horses. I'm raising it to two weeks, just because I love you. Hugs MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!"
Huh? I thought we'd discussed that in chat? In case it was after our discussion, I'm not taking any horses, I was just saying that I can't always peg you; I'm not trying to annoy you. And I agree with Jspoel after reading it all. Φύλαξ [~μίλησε μου~] 20:51, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
We did discuss it in chat, that was from earlier. It's a-okay. Hugs MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!"

I think this is wrong to raise this vote at this point before Yes-Man has had the opportunity to defend himself. As such I believe this vote should be suspended until contact with Yes-Man is established. Additionaly given the discomfort in some of Cartmans comments, is it not appropriate that a similar forum be raised? Agent c 20:05, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

I made a header for Yes-Man to enter his defence when and if he sees this. As for Cartman, I do not think he broke any rules; at least not nearly enough to make me and others doubt his administrator abilities. He was not the one to lose his composure, insult another editor nor perform a dramatic and immature drama stunt. Hugs MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!"
A header is one thing Scar, but we already have two votes that have been made without full information - without hearing his side. Cartman may not have lost his composure in that particular comment, but there is evidence presented on that very page of comments unbecoming an admin. Call a vote, sure, but do not permit any votes to be placed until his comments are presented. Also, Yessie is currently blocked. Agent c 20:11, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
Yessie blocked himself and is still an administrator, so he can unblock himself to put this in. The information of behaviour unbecoming of an administrator was 9 months old, and Cartman has already been reprimanded over this (as far as I gathered, anyway). I voted and consider myself to be privy to most information, considering I was following the debate as it transpired. If you're saying that outside - aka IRL - stress should matter, I do not agree, he should be able to keep his personal problems just that, personal. You do have a point in suspending it a bit. I'll give him 24 hours to find this, and leave him a talkpage message. After that I'll resume this vote. Hugs MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!"

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'm with Scar on this. If YM were a regular user, we wouldn't be here now. But he's an administrator and as such should be held to a higher degree of accountability. We will have no legitimacy to expect users to uphold the rules if those tasked with enforcing them ignore them and behave this way. We just can't have weekly drama fests coming from administrators like this.
Regarding Cartman, while he certainly has a history of winding people up, as far as the matter at hand goes his behaviour was completely proper, properly addressing all the counterpoints raised (to the point he was mocked for his long posts) and avoiding personalizing. Quite a contrast to Yes Man's emotionally heavy and ad-hominem filled responses.
And of course there's the final outburst. It was completely appalling to see an administrator resort to what's essentially a childish tantrum and passive-aggressive emotional blackmail to get his way. It shows a both lack of maturity and professionalism. If anything the reaction I expected from a committed administrator would to continue to strive to fix perceived failures, not to throw up his arms and leave the room pouting when he fails. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 20:39, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

I agree the outburst was wrong... But if I may quote Cartman, why are we expecting Admins to be completely emotionless - admins are real people just like the rest of us, and this comment seems out of character for Yessie, so I believe there is something more to it. I'm not saying that I'm going to vote either way, just that I'm not comfortable until the comments are put into context. From what I recall of last time (Tag), outside pressures did have an impact.
Given the lack of Recall votes in the past, I think its also worth possibly discussing what the procedure is here, are we talking about full defrocking, or just a bump down to moderator? Is there perhaps another sanction that might be more appropriate - some sort of probation? Agent c 21:11, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

I don't expect him to be emotionless, but I do expect every admin to be professional and mature, and the whole drama show was neither. TBH, it smacks me as validation seeking, as if his intention were to make it so that people would beg him for him to comeback, and meet him with fanfare when he finally does. But regardless of his motivation, the fact is everybody is tired of having admins stirring up weekly soap operas, it has already come to the point when every single user who's just arrived asks what's up with the admin team. To put it bluntly: if you don't know how to handle your personal problems without causing a commotion in the whole site, nor react maturely to set backs, then you're not fit to be in the administration. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 21:34, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

Hang on, what happened to the suspension of the vote? Agent c 22:03, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

He was already notified and refused to make any statement here. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 22:17, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
C> The protocol calls for removal of all powers. Not a demotion. If I got a poll up for a recall for my bc right, I would be stripped entirely, not reduced to an admin. I would need to reapply at a later date. Also as a bc I cannot vote on these as I need to be objective.--Kingclyde 22:22, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

( Come on Agent c (and others). He just had his fuses blown a couple of hours ago. You need to give him time to recover. Really. He deserves at least a day to respond. I'm not sure he will respond to this anyway, probably doesn't care at this stage. A good nights sleep may help (as it did with SD). Jspoel Speech Jspoel 22:36, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

I thought I had Jspoel... I think I've fought his corner all I can now in making sure he had an opportunity to respond. The event happened last night, he's had an opportunity to sleep on it. I'm inclined to vote yes for him if there was something else, some other stress in his life that contributed to it. But I will reconsider my vote and pull it for now. Yessie, Damnit, say something in your defence. Agent c 22:40, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

Give me time to think. I've just been unblocked, I have to set up an argument. I have no idea where to start, to be perfectly honest. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not very smart. But I'll think of something. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 22:43, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

PS. Could I just remind people that this is the first time I've acted like this? It's not a common occurrence for me to be insulting people, so why I've been called into question for one single instance is beyond me. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 23:16, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

Just a little note here; I am not telling people to vote off a limb, and I offered you, Yessie, to add your own quote of Cartman, as I was stumped for time and too tired to read through it yet again. You chose not to, apparently. Please don't go about things like this:
If you had actually read the forum, and not just go off Scarface's completely one-sided write-up of this re-confirmation request (he adds an incriminating quote from me, then tells us that he thinks I'm not a good example of an admin; however Cartman's is completely neutral with no evidence of his offences)— Yessie
Again, as I told you earlier, you're free to add in a quote from Cartman if you want to. Hugs MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!"

So convenient, Albert. You're too tired to find a quote against Cartman. Because it sure does take a lot out of you to go looking for something he said.
Also convenient that Cartman is "adventuring". Makes sense that he can't speak for himself. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 23:29, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

Rob, I had both company to entertain and this on my hands. Please concentrate on the matter at hand and find yourself some quotes. Accusing me like isn't making it look better for you, and it's not making this easier. Hugs MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!"
Again with the excuses. First your tired. Now you have company on your hands. Make up your mind, Albert.
Don't think we're buddies. You can go find those quotes by yourself because it's not my job. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 23:38, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
Why don't we just removed the quote and let people read the discussion themselves. Plain and simple. ToCxHawK 23:36, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
Sounds sensible. It is more at home in the comments, anyway. Also, Rob, I can be both tired and have my partner over, can I not? This isn't about me ,stay on subject. Hugs MadeMan2 "Say 'ello to my little friend!"

Both of you should take a break. I don't want this leading to yet another vote.Agent c 23:48, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

What I'm seeing here is one big psychological fallacy, known as an attribution error. Many of you are attributing Rob's behavior in this particular situation to his personality as a whole, which you can not do. Basically, we all do crazy things when we are mad, but you cannot judge a person entirely on an isolated incident. Notice I say isolated, when has Rob ever treated anyone like this before? Never. We all have done things like this, but we can't question the man's adminship on this. Was what he did really so unforgivable? Rob is a community minded man, who only wanted to help everyone get along, and sometimes, a person just snaps.--Bunny2Bubble 03:38, March 24, 2012 (UTC)


If I may add just one thing to the argument, mind you no opinion, for this is a direct quote that Scarface wrote himself. " Everyone makes mistakes, it's a part of being human. The most important thing about it is to learn from one's mistakes. Make sure that you take constructive criticism in a good way and learn from it rather than getting pissy over people correcting you;". If one was to practice what one preaches in this matter then maybe things might not have turned out the way they did. --76.10.170.47 04:26, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'd like people to take a look at Forum:Reconfirmation request - Tagaziel. He was in the same boat as me. Someone really got on his nerves, and he responded the way any normal human would. Yet it seems he's entitled to human emotions whereas I am not. Consider that.
Oh, and Scar?

If he continues with this attitude (which I highly doubt after this) he might come to this again, but for now, he does not deserve to lose adminship.— Scarface, on Tagaziel

What sets me apart from this? Do explain. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 05:10, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

Alternative Sanction

As I stated in my vote, I don't think the punishment fits the crime. I would instead offer the alternative sanction of 6 months probation. Any user unhappy with a response from Yessie can report this to a bureaucrat in this period, They can on their combined discretion take any action they feel appropriate (ie- if J&KC agree that defrocking is appropriate, they can do this, or they can warn, suggest alternative phrasing, etc at their discretion). Whilst I acknowledge KC's comment earlier that the process is for a full defrocking, there is no reason why it cant be changed, after all once upon a time in the common law legal system it was appropriate for judges to sit on their own cases, and for judges to lock up juries who refused to come to the verdict the judge wanted - absolutely no reason why the process cannot be changed to fit with circumstances. Agent c 23:48, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate the gesture, Agent. But if the community doesn't want me, I want to know it right here and right now. I've burned too many bridges to back out of this. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 23:53, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
As I once said to a young fresh user who got himself banned. You have not been rejected. Your behaviour has been rejected. There is a key difference. We can support you and like you, and not like what you did. Agent c 23:55, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
Don't say the community doesn't want you, because I still do. ToCxHawK 00:05, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I know there are plenty of people here who I still care about. People I'll care about regardless of what they say or do. People like HawK, Tocino, Nash, Nem, Chad, Garoux, Ci, Ryan, EB.... there are so many more people that I care about. But although I want to stay here for them, I'm not going to put up with the attitude of the minority, who don't see what's wrong with themselves and with this place. If there are still some who don't want me to be a part of this community, and punish me for standing up for myself, then I'll just do as they say and leave. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 00:10, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

There's standing up for yourself, and then there's taking that one step too far. I think you did, and then took another with this "Its him or me" stuff. This wiki is big enough for the both of you - Cartman is avoidable if you really can't stand him. Agent c 00:14, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

I've given the community a choice. I'm not going to stand for it if he's allowed to get away with his behaviour any longer. I appreciate the concern. If I felt I took things too far then I would remove my own admin rights and be done with it. But I think that as long as Cartman is still an admin here, imposing his own rules on people and getting away with things, then this community is not going to move forward. And I'm sure many agree. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 00:19, March 24, 2012 (UTC)
Ok Agent C, I understand that you may think the punishment is too harsh and there are others that feel that way. But I don't mean to come off as "bossy" or "full of myself", but simply put you are not an admin or a bc. This poll was put up for one reason. You are unfortunately not in the position to offer up an "alternate solution". All that does is simply make it more confusing for others. The results of this poll with either end with Yes-Man retaining his admin rights or having them removed. Please do not come into a discussion like this and undercut it's purpose.--Kingclyde 04:05, March 24, 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I have to agree with Clyde. Either the community wants me or they don't. No need to make this any more difficult than it already is, however I appreciate you trying to help me. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 04:11, March 24, 2012 (UTC)