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We feel that, while extremely useful on occasion, like a chem when one really needs it, skill magazines are too common to be notable loot.[[User:DarthOrc|DarthOrc]] 09:56, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 
We feel that, while extremely useful on occasion, like a chem when one really needs it, skill magazines are too common to be notable loot.[[User:DarthOrc|DarthOrc]] 09:56, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
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@L3377 and DarthOrc, you can formally vote on this issue [[Forum:Inclusion of skill magazines in the notable loot category|here]]. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 17:02, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:02, 28 April 2012

Forums: Index > Wiki discussion > Notability of skill magazines


It's been a commonplace so far to list skill magazines in the notable loot sections, and I'd like to argue this practice should be officially abolished. The way I understand it, there are four points to determine if an item is notable:

•Rarity
•Value
•Use in repeatable quests
•Unusual quantities

Skill magazines fit in none of those categories. As such, they simply don't belong in the notable loot sections.

One argument listed in favor of keeping them notable is to compare them to skill books. The books, however, are rare and have a limited maximum availability (save, for the inclusion of books in the random loot of the workbench crate in HH). Also, unlike magazines, books have a permanent effect.

Another argument is that magazines are particularly useful as they help passing skill checks, and as such are a great help for people, specially in the beginning. To that I say that there is already a list of where those can be found. It's more efficient to search for the magazines of the specific skills you want in that than randomly browsing the nearby area's articles in hopes of finding a magazine of that particular skill you need to boost.

More importantly, skill magazines are in practice only really useful in the early stages of the game. Afterwards, as skills approach the maximum they become increasingly less useful. Coupled with the fact they're remarkably common and cheap, it's far more likely the player will be constantly carrying a 5+ stock of every magazine after a short while, making the need of actively searching for them even less remote. Not to mention the fact that they are become craftable with OWB.

Next, the argument that the articles are better with them than without. I say they are not, as they simply clutter up the lists, which should be by its very definition short and objective. They're supposed to list the things you absolutely shouldn't leave without, and magazines are quite frankly not only useless, but also actually an annoyance for the better part of the game. Sure they are weightless, but they clutter up the inventory (specially the AID section) and make it unnecessarily harder to find specific items you want.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that most arguments in favor of keeping them could be extended to items I'm sure nobody will argue it's notable, such as ordinary chems like mentats or even beer. Those don't belong in the list, just like magazines don't.

"Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"

Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 22:28, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Id like to add that according to the current guidelines, they have no business being listed. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 22:44, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
You also forgot the layout guidelines "Notable loot: List unique and rare loot here with a short description of where to find it.". User:AvatarUser talk:Avatar 22:51, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Comments

I agree 100% for the removal of the magazines from the notable loot sections. -- Bacon-Man Talk to me goose! 22:30, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

To me they're effectively the same as Chems like Buffout, mentants, and Jet and should have the same rules applied, whichever way one goes the other should. They're stuff you might go looking for to solve a specific problem, but aren't rare. Agent c 22:32, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

This was discussed way back when and resulted in this page. The only difference between then and now is that FNV has been released and contains skill magazines. In regards to skill magazines, they shouldn't be treated any different than any other temp stat changing consumable such as chems. Other than that there isn't really anything more to be discussed on the subject. User:AvatarUser talk:Avatar 22:42, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

They may not be rare, and certainly aren't valuable, and we are not addressing the matter of unusually large quantities, but there is one thing to this: whereas they are not used for repeatable quests, they can be used repeatedly for different quests, or even in the same quest. Skill magazines are very useful, especially at earlier levels, as many quests or dialogues require skill checks that a player may not be able to meet. In addition, True Police Stories can significantly improve one's chances in combat. Furthermore, the comparison to chems isn't very good since the magnitude of the effects are a lot less, not to mention they are addictive, often have downsides to their consumption, and certain ones such as beer have weight. All in all, skill magazines most certainly are not "notable" by the current notability criterion, but nevertheless they should stay because of their usefulness to the player character - they are not valuable in terms of money, but are invaluable for passing skill checks and moving along in the game. SigmaDelta54 (Talk) 22:54, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

I argued those points in the 4th and 5th paragraphs. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 23:13, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
They maybe useful, but so are many other items within the game. Purified water and stimpaks are useful, they rehydrate H20 bars and heal the player, they are also essential for gameplay. Whereas, Magazines are not essential to gameplay. They are optional, for use when skills are not high enough but they can be returned to when you skill is high enough. This is not the same for health or H20 bars as they cannot be brought back up later, especially during a fire-fight. It is this which makes them not essential, but still useful, as such leaving them is ridiculous since they would no longer conform to the standard Notable Loot rules for pages. It may be useful for players to know of specific locations in the eventuality they need them, but that would also apply to ammunition, armour, chems and so on; they are all based upon circumstance, not essential pieces of play. Neko's PageNeko's Haunt 23:03, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
It is true that stimpaks and even purified water may be useful, especially in Hardcore Mode, but both are a lot more common than skill magazines. And they are not essential either, as one could drink from sinks, natural bodies of water, et al. and simply eat (not use stimpaks) or see a doctor. "Optional" isn't the best word either, since often it cannot be helped that certain skills are low (early-on in the game) due to there being no chance to raise them to a required level. SigmaDelta54 (Talk) 23:08, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
Anything that increases stats at early levels is valuable to the player, especially anything that increases SPECIAL stats as it has the knock effect of the derived stats, so that argument is kind of weak at best. As for the rest of the argument, those points can be applied to many other items that are currently considered non-notable. I can kinda understand the romantic connection people have to these items, but the problem with that is that it jades a persons judgement to the actual nature of the item. User:AvatarUser talk:Avatar 23:13, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
Again though, I refer to my earlier statement, most, if not all, skill checks can be done at another time whereas H20 and Health bars are something of a higher priority in the game. These, if running low, will kill your character but a skill check, though it may indirectly kill your character, still does not have the same weight. It is this which makes the magazines less important, bringing it into the same field as the chems, mentioned above in LimmieGirl's initial forum post, which are not notable. Neko's PageNeko's Haunt 23:15, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
P.S. Forgot to add, what are we here.. a game guide or a wiki? User:AvatarUser talk:Avatar 23:16, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
The argument may be weak if you twist it so it reads "anything that increases stats at early levels is valuable to the player". Rather, what increases stats that is weightless and is not a chem, skill magazines, are valuable. And Neko, you are referring to the Hardcore Mode with the whole H20 bar thing, which I've never referenced. The main discrepancy is that their function is shared by numerous other items (alternatives). And please explain what the difference is between a "wiki" and a game guide. Is not our ultimate goal to provide information that readers can/will find helpful? SigmaDelta54 (Talk) 23:23, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
I was referring to my initial comment, where I talked about the H20 bar and it's relation to the importance of water compared to magazines. Neko's PageNeko's Haunt 23:39, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
A game guide offers strategy while we do not. ToCxHawK 23:26, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

( And how is anything I've ever said strategic (without perversion)? SigmaDelta54 (Talk) 23:29, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, when did "what increases stats that is weightless and is not a chem" become a criteria. Secondly, what has weight got to do with anything, by that count most other things then become non-notable, such as unique items etc. And my point about being a wiki and not a game guide, is that we are here to note information. That information can be found on the respective page, so why do we need to be redundant in repeating that information when it isn't notable in of itself. Using the argument that it is good for players in the early stages of the game is a game guide argument and not a wiki one. The argument should be centred around how we present this information and in what pages. Hence the discussion of if it is notable to place it in the location pages as well. User:AvatarUser talk:Avatar 23:33, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
That line you are referring to was my basic point in all this: that the function of skill magazines, along with their weightlessness and other differences from chems make it in a way - unique. And regarding your redundancy/this-is-a-wiki point: then the same goes for skill books too, right? They are also noted on a centralised page but yet repeated on respective location articles. SigmaDelta54 (Talk) 23:54, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
"The books, however, are rare and have a limited maximum availability. Also, unlike magazines, books have a permanent effect." Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 00:16, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
I am aware of that, but I was addressing GAv's redundancy point and how this shouldn't be listed again on individual location articles. At any rate, if we are strictly sticking to the notable loot policy, and completely using that to decide whether or not skill magazines should stay, there is enough reason for them to be removed. That and some of the other points presented are enough to pull me into agreement and thus I withdraw my previous arguments. SigmaDelta54 (Talk) 00:20, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── My whole point about this being a wiki and not a game guide was in response to this statement "Skill magazines are very useful, especially at earlier levels". Whether someone is of value for players at early levels is a redundant argument, the discussion should be around how we note the information on the wiki. Technically, everything is of use to a player, depending on there style of gaming. So this kind of argument becomes drawn out and tiresome due to each person involved in the discussion respective gameing style. The discussion should be centred around how the information is imparted via the wiki, which is why the section is so named notable loot and not just loot. This prevents information becoming overly repetitive and redundant. The only question here that should be answered is if skill magazines are notable, and not base that argument around how they impact on a persons game, because then the argument becomes subjective and not objective. User:AvatarUser talk:Avatar 01:02, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that actually, I didn't understand initially what you were referring to. I can see how "usefulness" in this sense is strategic and so the repetition of the information adds on to such. SigmaDelta54 (Talk) 01:05, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

( I don't know. How I feel about it probably has also to do with how far I progressed in the game and it's not that far... In fact I only got sort of halfway and then I spent all my time on the wiki. As I remember it (yes it's been a while) one of my main interests and goals was wanting to pass all checks, so obviously I wanted to know the locations of all the fixed skill magazines and ease of finding them (so for example on the Goodsprings or Primm page). They are not like any other item or chem, standing out with a massive skill effect of +20, without negative effects (except for the temporary status of it). I consider them special, about on the same level as skill books and those are listed on the location pages. I can see the point of the argument of them being less useful and notable later on in the game though and them being craftable. Still I'd like to make an exception for the magazines to be listed on location pages as an important enough extra service to the user. As I see it, there are pros and cons. I suggest we put it up for a vote then. Jspoel Speech Jspoel 16:55, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'll be setting up a voting forum then. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 17:41, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I definitely think they're notable loot. I'm always using skill magazines like crazy during my playthroughs, especially speech ones. Whether they fit into the technical definition or not is debatable, but I definitely would like to know their location whenever I'm reading about loot in an area.--L3377MA573R 17:15, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

We feel that, while extremely useful on occasion, like a chem when one really needs it, skill magazines are too common to be notable loot.DarthOrc 09:56, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

@L3377 and DarthOrc, you can formally vote on this issue here. --Skire (talk) 17:02, April 28, 2012 (UTC)