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Discussion on TP policy, Warning Tabs, etc

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Following the recent referendum on TP policy, it was decided that the status quo would be maintained. However, it was clear that it was far from a consensus, and many alternatives were scribbled. The purpose of this page is to open up a place where such alternatives can be properly discussed and fleshed out. I've divided the page into two main categories, namely the ones that present amendments to the current system, without outright departing from its principles, and another that would supplant the current system altogether. Please feel free add to, or to propose any new ideas here by creating subsections underneath them. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 17:28, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Amendments to the current policyEdit

Allowing the users to request from administrators a premature archival, AKA Clean Slate RuleEdit

This is something I discussed with Sigma earlier, it basically would allow users to request from an administrator the permission to prematurely archive a 'dirty' talk page. Some of the concerns raised were that new users felt discouraged after having warnings over newbie mistakes stuck permanently on their talk pages. This rule would give them the opportunity to have a fresh start so to speak, provided the admin in question is convinced of the good faith of the request, which I believe would solve the main issue with the no-removal rule. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 17:28, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the policy does allow for exceptions already. All a user has to do is politely ask, and we'll take it into consideration. Dragon Leon Skål! 17:36, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, it allows the admins discretionary power to remove content, but what this proposal is about is to officialize the channels to those who feel bothered by the official warnings. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 17:56, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Limited removal rightsEdit

I know some of this is coded already, and the rest typically assumed to be okay through common sense, but presuming we're keeping the presumption that you can't remove stuff I'd like to codify a limited right to remove certain items from a TP:

  • Welcome Messages and Talkback messages
  • Self placed content (eg "Welcome" messages some of us place at the top)
  • Messages constituting harrasment.

I don't expect any of these to be seen as contraversial in any way, and I think it just reflects current best practice anyway. Agent c (talk) 18:04, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

This is so much common sense it wouldn't even need to be spelled out, but naturally I have no problems with doing so either, so I'm behind this as well. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 18:19, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

General discussion amendments to the current policyEdit

If the only issue with blanking talk pages is the fact that admin warning are also removed, I would prefer to see a policy directed at that, instead of a blanket policy. Something along the lines of admin notices can not be removed or archived for a period of 1 month. User avatar tagUser Avatar talk 19:32, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

If a "warnings" tab policy does not replace the current one, I would fully support this modification to the current policy. The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg 20:36, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Alternatives to the current policyEdit

Warnings TabEdit

My alternative proposal to the existing talk page policy would be to add a sub-page to the effected user's userspace titled "Warnings" or "Notices", e.g. User:FalloutBob1123/Warnings. This would act as a virtual "permanent record" to record all official communications from admins, chat mods, etc. It would necessitate first leaving a message, either hand-written or automated using one of the many notice templates we have, on the user's talk page. This will allow the user to be informed of the message by the talk page message notice we all get. The notice writer would then copy the same message to the user's "warning" page for a permanent and easy to find record. I understand that Ghost has written some javascript code that can add a "warnings" tab to the userspace, so the page will be very easy to navigate to, and there are ways to limit the ability of users to edit these pages, or make their edits easy to see in recent changes.

This proposal would solve the stated problems both sides of the argument have:

  1. Admins will have easy and quick access to any prior warnings, without the worry of the user deleting said warnings.
  2. Users will be able to enjoy full freedom of the talk pages, which many view as their "property", as they are in their user space.

This proposal will shift the burden of time from having to possibly search talk page archives and watch recent changes for talk page message removal to having to add the messages to two pages when written and only having to watch recent changes for edits to warning pages. I personally feel the trade-off is more than equitable, with the bonus of solving the stated problems of both sides of the argument. The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg 20:16, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

I endorse this product and/or service. I suggest that it be tried in conjunction with the current policy for a week or two, then subject to a vote as a replacement. Agent c (talk) 20:45, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
GAV mentioned it could be set so only users with privileges could see and edit the warnings tabs, how exactly would that work? The protection currently only differentiates between anons, regular users and admins. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 21:10, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
This is quite easily by-passable. Hell, you can even partition the Wikia Staff into changing individual wiki's ranks and rights managements. Dragon Leon Skål! 21:16, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure Ghost can answer this more fully, but I believe that the javascript that makes the tab show can be altered so that only certain users/users with certain rights can see it. Right now, both Leon and I have the script running in our own common.js. I think this will work wonderfully. (btw, Leon, I laughed like hell when I saw your "note" on yours. That's some kinda funny :).
@Limmie, since the tab is added via JavaScript, all it takes is a simple if command, to check if the user is of a certain user rights group before displaying said tab. As for the page protection. Again using the same variables with JavaScript, we can remove the edit button for none admin etc. for that page. It dose not stop them from editing the page, as it can be circumvented by directly inputting the edit page url or switching off JavaScript in the browser. But it dose hamper and discourage them from editing it. Add in the highlighting of edits to these pages in recent changes, would mean that the chances of someone other than mods/admin editing these pages un-noticed is very unlikely. In other words they would have to know the page exists, where it exists and also to edit it they need to know to either switch off JS or know the wiki url code to edit pages. Then it would need to go unnoticed by admins. User avatar tagUser Avatar talk 21:31, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
I see, that seems like a sound alternative. I'm interested in a trial run as well. Limmiegirl Lildeneb Talk! ♪ 21:39, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
I absolutely agree. I'm very interested in this new option, and how it might work out in our favour. Oh, and I'm happy to amuse, Gunny. xD Dragon Leon Skål! 21:44, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
I put my faith in this 100%. I'm all for the trial run. Yes Man defaultUser Avatar talk 04:23, August 14, 2012 (UTC)
Regarding the Warning tab, could we also see a direct link in wiki chat, under the user menu, for mods/admins to use/see? It would make ban messages and warnings easier to issue if there's a direct link there along with the current "contribs-talkpage-PM" buttons. Neko-signature Gothic NekoNeko's Haunt 14:29, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
It seems there may be enough support for this to give it a trail run. Ghost, is there anything else we need to do before we give this a trial shot? Anyone have any serious misgivings about a trail? The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg 14:38, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
I just need to refine the script a bit further (i.e. excluding normal users from seeing the tab) and rename the tab to something less ominous like notices. Other than that, it is all good. And Neko, it is more than possible. But atm I am leaning JS (in other words, making guesses until it does what I want it to do), so it is kinda out of my scope of knowledge at present. User avatar tagUser Avatar talk 17:30, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
Almost forgot, I also need to create the script to hide the edit button on said page from normal users as well. User avatar tagUser Avatar talk 17:41, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
Admin Comms/Communications maybe? Agent c (talk) 17:59, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
I think "Notices" would be fine. That's the name of the template anyways:P The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg 02:59, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
Right, the script are pretty much ready to go I think *crosses fingers*. They are basic scripts that get the job done so people can see it in action. If this becomes a permanent thing, I would probably suggest someone like Grunny take a look at the scripts to see if there is anything I have missed. So is there any objections to adding the script now for a trial run? User avatar tagUser Avatar talk 15:35, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

ObjectionsEdit

None.  The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg 15:46, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Good to go. Agent c (talk) 15:47, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good enough to test it out. Detroit lions Hawk da Barber 2012 - BSHU Graduate 18:27, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

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