Forum:Chat ban appeal

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I would like to present a Chat ban appeal from Cartman!'s action towards banning me upon the chat for just insulting him. I know I'm not heard alot within the forums or to most people, and I know Cartman! is a good guy at times, but this really pushed me too far. I too have evidence and witnesses about his action towards me was unjustified for what he has done. I admit that I clearly broke a rule by insulting another member of the wikia, and I take full responsibility for my short-tempered actions, but I want to make the point that even though I broke the rule, what gives an admin or a higher ranking user any right to avoid the very rules he/she breaks?

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman-1.jpg

I merely opened up a subject about a videogame about Aliens vs. Predator (AVP) wondering if I should get it or not, and opened it publicly for everyone to put their opinion in it. After awhile I stated towards myself since no one wanted to input their opinion that I should probably not buy it and insured myself that it would be a waste of money

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman2-1.jpg

This was my feedback, which was basically stating I would complain 24/7 even if no one was around.I only wanted feedback about the game itself to insure if it was a decent game or not, but instead I get back an insult.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman3.jpg

I come back to see Cart's comment and replied with my own as well, showing hostility towards his snappy comment as it states I do nothing but complain, having no use, and his response is that of a Literal 'egging' term.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman4.jpg

Cartman copies and pastes my reply as if to repeat myself towards him stating that he isn't kidding when I myself, wasn't as well. To jokingly tease one another is one thing, but to call out someone else in an insult altogether and being a dick.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman5.jpg

I openly explain right here about why the hostility towards his comment and tell him to 'don't push me' as a way of stating to stop egging me or to continue to 'poke me' with snide comments.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman6.jpg

this was after several minutes of conversating with another person, and Cartman continues to push towards what I will do if he 'pushes' me too far.(I apologize for the lapping pictures, if you wish I can post a better one of this, along with the next one.)

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman7.jpg

After that Cartman's comment, I merely tell him in my opinion in honesty what he is doing, being an 'ass' towards me or aka 'a Dick' and merely stating that all I wanted was an opinion or 'two cents' of another person's thoughts upon the game or problem I had.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman8.jpg

he responds with a question and doesn't openly disagree with what I said about him, as he has already broken the rule #7. Instead he states my response isn't satisfactory with his question and wants me to answer what I would do if he 'pushes' me, basically egging me even further, even though I stopped on the subject and moved onward to help someone, he continues.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman9.jpg

I merely responded to him that I was opening it towards everyone in the chat about the subject, not about ME. I then responded with the same statement he used before, stating that the insult was unnecessary. He then copies and pastes the history of my opinion upon the game and my own thoughts after no one responds to insure my choice, and tells me that is complaining as he sees.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman10.jpg

I continued to state further that all I wanted was other people's opinions upon the game situation, when he states after that he insults me by saying I complain, trying to state it's not a big deal when it is towards my viewpoint that stating I complain 24/7 about 'everything'.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman11.jpg

I tell him yet again here to 'back off' and stop, where even other users take notice of the argument whereas his response is merely to state the obvious where others have taken notice.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman13.jpg

This was after Billy stated that I get insulted by him all the time and not take notice and stated merely because of his actions in the past, he is the 'town drunk' of the wikia in my viewpoint, which then Billy retorts to me as the Village Idiot or as Cart would join in the "Village Complainer" continuing to egg on about how I would 'complain' about everything everytime.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman14.jpg

This was during the time when Scarface, Billy were talking about Bows and Arrows, when I openly denied of them being in the game, when Cartman makes a snide comment about how I will complain about the weapon subject "Oh god. Here we go."

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman15.jpg

As me and Scarface begin our conversation about the Bow and Arrow, Cartman begins the "Mr. Literal" act, stating that my argument is irrelevant when you can 'throw a stick' at them when we were clearly talking about bows and arrows and shooting 'sticks' aka "arrows", so possibly trolling in a way since he already knows that me and him are speaking about Bows and Arrows, not sticks.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman16.jpg

he continues to onward again, pushing on the same 'argument is irrelevant' idea with his act, getting a rise out of me yet again being a Literal Dick seeing as he already knows the subject, but instead of putting viable feedback like Scar, he mainly puts a troll-like statement.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman17.jpg

His act succeeds in yet again upsetting me to the breaking point, as I know his act seeing as he is not that ignorant in the subject.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman18.jpg

I finally reach the boiling point as I confronted him about his statements, while he lamely puts it that stick is a spear and arrow comparison, as if to think I meant I wanted to throw and arrow at a Deathclaw or he was talking either way about both items or so, infuriating me, again being a "Literal Dick"

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman19.jpg

I finally break the boiling point and blow a fuse, insulting him and putting out the reason that he doesn't do this Literal act to anyone I noticed so far, but does it start towards me, and thus giving me my ban for my anger.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman21.jpg

This is the part where Cartman comes back and finally bans me for my angry outburst I had, and that is the end of my story.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww50/zerginfestor/Cartman20.jpg

This is the aftermath of the banning, stating openly that I told him to 'Go Fuck Himself" towards Klyde, which is obviously a lie and false. I have not stated to fuck himself nor in any other way. The closest word to this was when I stated "Fuck you Cart" at the very beginning but that is in no other way to mean "Go Fuck yourself" but an actual literary meaning of my hostility towards his open insult.

I am not trying to say I was right to insult him, in fact I was wrong and should know better. However, the point I'm trying to make here is that before my anger outburst was that he was clearly egging or instigating me to this boiling point or in other words to 'poke the bear' till something happens, which is obviously what he wanted: me to be infuriated by his Literal meanings and being a Dick towards my efforts to tell him to back off my continuing to 'poke' me into exploding. I've been here for around 5 months and I know not many of you know me, but the people that do know that I have a very short temper towards these things, and one of them is letting Cartman get away with pushing me to my anger moment. I just want people to see that just because he's popular, or an admin, that he shouldn't get away with breaking a few rules, while if I break one, I'm banned. Again, I apologize for my short temper explosion, and I wish I could take back my insult, but I may be the Nuclear device exploding, Cartman was the one who pushed the buttons.

I also like the thank Limmiegirl for helping me dearly with the files and for the hard work and as witness, and thanks along to SigmaDelta54, and GarouxBloodline for the encouragement. If any other member would like to see the files themselves for their own eyes, I will gladly show the link.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mbbfcvagk12rnng/Chat_log.zip

(I'm so sorry upon the pictures, I have no idea how to put them in a Link format like it does upon a chat)

Comments

Firstly, Id suggest recutting those images to exclude all the out of window stuff, just takes up too much space.
Secondly, some of Carts' statements do seem a bit trolly.... Agent c 02:59, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Insulting people has always been against the chat rules, whether you were instigated or not. Also, as you can see in a few of the pictures, Kingclyde was present when this happened, and if I remember correctly, he was persuaded your ban was fair. BILLYOCEAN ^{Wanna talk?} 03:00, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

• I have to agree here. Clyde said the ban was fair. Also, Billy's sister, Matilda is totally sensitive. EB^Talk 03:07, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

• It states in Rule 7 that your not allowed to be a 'Dick" and in another rule to troll another, no matter what your rank is. Cartman obviously did both towards me and was hoping to get a rise out of me.--Zerginfestor 03:10, March 12, 2012 (UTC)Zerginfestor

To be fair, Cartman seems to be happy to insult too... See the top image @ Hawk and the latter one where he calls Zerg the Village complainer. Agent c 03:11, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not stating Cartman is a bad guy, he does his job damn well and I respect that in his edits, but to edge me or to continue to troll me and becoming suddenly "Mr. Literal" act, was wrong. You can also see that I tried to tell him to back off twice, but he insisted in continuing in provoking me.--Zerginfestor 03:14, March 12, 2012 (UTC)Zerginfestor

I'll roll with ya, but just don't take it seriously. Insults shouldn't be in chats, and it all started for something so peaceful like. (just as a side note, I see you have a Gaia account :O )--For NCR 03:06, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I know this is totally off topic, but I was way too busy laughing at EB and Billy's commentary. As for the ban, you're both sort of breaking rules here... 03:21, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

• Again, yessie I did not say I didn't. I did not say I was innocent, However I am merely pointing out that yes, I get my punishment and I will take it, but he doesn't? He gets to walk off like a free man? That's unacceptable.--Zerginfestor 03:49, March 12, 2012 (UTC)Zerginfestor

I think both Zerg and Cartman were wrong. First off, yes Zerg was provoked, and gave Cartman a response. This whole ordeal could have been avoided and both sides are to blame for not trying to stop it before it got heated. Cartman was in the wrong for stating Zerg complained about everything and Zerg was in the wrong for responding in the way he did. Once the insults started flying that should have been a sign that it went too far and should have been stopped and not continued. All in all, this should be dropped and forgotten. Forgive and forget. ToCxHawK 03:23, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I Concurr. Agent c 03:24, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to just throw my opinion in, kind of agreeing that you are both in the wrong. It is never ok to insult anyone else, no matter what rank you are.-- 04:24, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

• EXACTLY! that's what I wanted to hear, not "oh your still wrong" I KNOW I'm wrong! if you read my entire thing I have apologized for my outburst actions. Again, I was the nuclear explosion, Cartman was the one pushing the button, both are unacceptable--Zerginfestor 04:35, March 12, 2012 (UTC)Zerginfestor

I haven't been here long enough to judge Zerg's actions, but from what I've seen, the whole thing wasn't really a problem and could've easily been solved without any kickbanning going on. But that's just my opinion. --{{SUBST:User:Weirdowithcoffee/SigReal}} 05:41, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Response

I'll try to address this paragraph for paragraph.

1. At the first stage it's important to note that nobody was talking for a while, and Zerg was talking almost to himself about AVP or what-have-you, and I had heard from many regular chat-goers previously about his legendary complaining which apparently happened all of the time (not my own words).

2. So continuing onwards, after seeing this "self-complaining" I decided to comment on the matter, and note that I'm not trying to "insult" him, merely making the point of the extent of his complaining.

3. Hmm, my comment says "Fucking hell, you complain even when nobody is paying attention don't you?", it says nothing akin to me telling him he "does nothing but complain" and "has no use"... in fact I think it's strange to claim that I said that when my original statement was provided in a screenshot. I'm not sure how I can be accused of "egging" at this point considering how it was my first statement which was just highlighting the issue.

4. I think it's clear why I copied and pasted the comment, it's so that it was clear as to what I was replying to as some others had commented before I had a chance to reply. I'm not trying to make Zerg "repeat himself" or whatever it is I'm being accused of here. Moving on, I didn't actually think Zerg was being serious with his "fuck you" comment which is why I didn't find it necessary to warn him or anything. The "I'm not kidding", "So you want to fuck me?" was quite clearly lighthearted banter, surely even Zerg can see that. I mean at this point I had no idea he had taken the complaining comment to heart and was as angry as he apparently was at the time. This apparent anger is confirmed with the line "but to call out someone else in an insult altogether and being a dick", and I'm not even sure what he's referencing. The "you want to fuck me" comment? Because really I'm not sure how anyone could have taken that as a serious question. Also calling me a dick is a little over the top considering how I wasn't the first to become suddenly enraged and tell the other to fuck himself, which I had assumed in good faith was a joke. More fool me.

5. At the time I was doing my best to turn the subject into lighthearted banter as I did before, but looking at it now the "don't push me" comment sounds unnecessarily threatening, I wasn't sure then what he was trying to say and I'm not sure now. Also I'm not particularly sure what the "open explanation" is meant to be, as he brought the AVP game subject up himself which doesn't imply merely "putting 2 cents in".

6. Yes, this was five minutes later, isn't it clear that this was yet again another attempt to provoke some kind of friendly back-and-forth, especially considering the use of the "XD" expression?

7. And then I'm called an ass for daring to mention earlier that he was complaining. I'm not sure how making the point that he complains a lot is some kind of grave insult to his character, as I've said before I'm not even the first person to have said it. Telling someone they complain when nobody is paying attention is not the same as telling them to fuck themselves and that they're an ass.

8. As we can see in the above screenshot, even at this point I'm surprised that I got that kind of a response from him and didn't feel my comment warranted it. Again Zerginfestor makes the point of "an insult", and again I don't know how mentioning his complaining is something he can take to heart in such a way in that he thinks it's okay to directly insult me by calling me an ass along with the previous "fuck you" comment. "Doesn't openly disagree"? I didn't realise I had to deny something otherwise I'd become automatically guilty, if I don't answer to Zerginfestor's inflammatory accusations then suddenly I'm automatically an "ass" and a "dick" in his own words. I hardly think it's appropriate for him to dictate here how I've broken the ambiguous "don't be a dick" rule after his multiple direct insults towards me. Hell, how am I supposed to even interpret an accusation of a rule 7 violation just from his comment about me being an ass? He tried to gloss over this fact earlier with "being an 'ass' towards me or aka 'a Dick'" but I'm sorry, no. I can see how you attempted to slip this in here as a way of implying some kind of admission akin to "yes I'm a dick, ban me", but this is deliberately misleading. Calling someone an ass and expecting them to think you're accusing them of "being a dick and violating the ambiguous rule 7" are... quite clearly not the same thing. And besides this is completely open to interpretation and considering how there were other admins around who didn't support the claim I think its safe to say this is somewhat baseless.

Zerg then tries to say that I asked him again what he'd do if I pushed him, which is -- again -- a strange claim to make considering how the screenshot above provided by him has no mention of me asking him again. So I'm supposedly "egging him on" again without even doing what he says I'm doing. Hmm. I'd also like to know where I stated that his response isn't satisfactory, and to what standard I'm supposedly threatening him with, because if simply disagreeing with him and saying that I don't think his insults were necessary is viewed as wrong by Zerginfestor, then I frankly I don't even want to continue this discussion with someone closed-minded enough to suggest that disagreeing with him is in itself some kind of wrongdoing.

"even though I stopped on the subject and moved onward to help someone, he continues "

Actually, nowhere did you imply that the discussion was over in the above screenshot, and the common thing to do when someone makes a comment directed towards you and calls you an ass, is to reply.

9. "The question did not warrant an insult" is essentially exactly the same thing I said earlier in regard to his statement. So, what insult? Saying that he complains a lot? ...Really? ...I'm not even sure how anyone who just told the other person to fuck themselves and that they're an ass can even say this and be taken seriously. I'm not even sure what is meant by "to insure my choice", I think it's probably best not to guess at my motives.

10. Actually it's pretty clear what I'm saying here too. "Insult by saying you complain" is not any kind of admission, in fact it should be quite obvious that I'm expressing shock or disbelief that you're actually arguing that point. Also, I see Zerginfestor is again attempting to change what I actually said. Note that I never said he complains "24/7 about 'everything'", I just said he was complaining even when nobody was there. If you don't believe me, view the original screenshot.

11. I don't usually respond to harsh behaviour by just giving the other person what they want, him telling me to back off and me noting that I'm not the only person to have noticed is nothing particularly wrong now is it. And if it's "obvious" and Zerginfestor has taken note, then why is he so surprised and insulted that someone else has too?

12. Village idiot, town drunk, and village complainer. Not only is my comment the least offensive of all of them, there is then the fact that out of nowhere Zerginfestor declares that Billy is akin to a town drunk, and in the above argument offers no apology for this and just states that it's "his viewpoint". It should be quite clear at this point that I'm trying very hard to put a humorous bent on the entire situation, village complainer was timed immediately after Billy and Zerginfestor saw fit to call each other those names and matched the established pattern. There is nothing strange about this especially when you consider Zerg's comment, I would have liked to believe he had calmed down at least a little since the last encounter. Again, what on Earth is this thing about eggs?

13. Well, yes, we were talking about bows and he began complaining about them. I offer no apology, this is a clear observation and I'm surprised Zerg himself didn't notice that it fit in with the entire argument earlier quite hilariously.

14. This "Mr. Literal" thing is quite strange indeed, considering how I was extending the same metaphor (which might technically be true depending on how you look at it) that an arrow equals a stick to encompass spears. Earlier Zerginfestor mentioned that bows would have little use as you'd be shooting a stick at a giant dangerous deadly reptile or something to that effect. My comment about how you can "throw a stick at them" (the spear) isn't any more "literal" than the arrow comment and in my opinion the two views fit together perfectly. I have absolutely no idea how this is a "Mr. Literal act" when I am in fact using a metaphor here myself as I personally wouldn't consider arrows or spears "sticks". Then, "so possibly trolling in a way since he already knows that me and him are speaking about Bows and Arrows, not sticks". Now this cannot possibly be a serious accusation of trolling at all considering how I was quite clearly talking about spears, a comment which was conveniently left out of the screenshot. Even without that comment it's quite clear as I certainly don't remember any "stick" item in the game.

Honestly it isn't my fault if this "gets a rise" out of you, if using your own metaphor against you in an argument is somehow "too far" then don't get involved in the discussion in the first place. And here you call me a "Literal Dick". Can you not see how this doesn't help your case and you're just insulting me more and more? There is absolutely no cause for that, and you could at least try some common decency for the sake of making your complaint look more professional. You don't even have to actually like me, but calling me a dick over and over again is not a good way to go about things.

15. See the above paragraph. Also I will note that it's possible that we're simply misunderstanding each other here and you didn't catch on to the fact that I'm referencing spears which already appear in game, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there.

16. "His act succeeds in yet again upsetting me to the breaking point, as I know his act seeing as he is not that ignorant in the subject." ...Upsetting to the breaking point? All I did was use the expression "<_<" as the above screenshot shows. It's strange to declare that I'm the ignorant one (or at least feigning ignorance) when you're the one who failed to understand what I was actually talking about and instead took it as another kind of insult or "troll attempt".

I can assure you I am no troll and have dealt with a great many in my time, and now that I've explained what I was talking about quite clearly I hope you can understand that.

17. "I finally reach the boiling point as I confronted him about his statements, while he lamely puts it that stick is a spear and arrow comparison, as if to think I meant I wanted to throw and arrow at a Deathclaw or he was talking either way about both items or so, infuriating me, again being a "Literal Dick" "

Oh come on, again you call me a dick, and even though I tried to explain to you that calling an arrow a stick is little different to calling a spear a stick you still failed to understand and took it as some kind of insult to your character with such overly dramatised language as being "pushed to boiling point". I think it's fair to say you're being sensitive at this point if you're behaving like this even after the incident. This isn't some great insult Zerg, I really don't know why you're trying to take it as such. So far you reacted to everything I said with great venom and contempt, and appeared to take everything I said to heart. I would categorise that as sensitivity, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. If someone called me sensitive I wouldn't take it as a great insult and call them a dick repeatedly, in fact it probably wouldn't even bother me at all. It's important to note Zerg, that the rules don't just bend for whatever someone feels offended by, as one can be offended by anything potentially.

18. Yes, you insulted me. How would you know what I'm like towards anyone else? I've barely interacted with you and have hardly been active in chat for months now, so how would you know what I'm like to other people? And even if you did, most people likely wouldn't have taken offence in such a way and reacted as rudely.

19. Completely justified, as you have at this point told me to fuck myself, called me an ass, called me a dick, and finally a dumbass. That's two more chances than most people would get as I know most mods and admins have in the past issued one warning only.

20. "This is the aftermath of the banning, stating openly that I told him to 'Go Fuck Himself" towards Klyde, which is obviously a lie and false. I have not stated to fuck himself nor in any other way. The closest word to this was when I stated "Fuck you Cart" at the very beginning but that is in no other way to mean "Go Fuck yourself" but an actual literary meaning of my hostility towards his open insult. "

Oh come on. Really? An obvious lie and false? You said "Fuck you Cart", how would you have phrased that? That is you telling me to fuck myself, it wouldn't have made much sense if I would have said "he told me to fuck me" would it? Now you seem to be trying to twist the semantics in an attempt to make me seem dishonest when you've even supplied a screenshot with yourself telling me to fuck myself. I never stated that you literally said "Go fuck yourself" at all, and it's remarkably strange that you're trying to create a distinction between "fuck you" and "he told me to fuck myself". If you didn't realise already "fuck you" is the same as telling someone to fuck themselves, and I couldn't have phrased it any other way without sounding like a complete idiot.

Yes, you were wrong and should know better, and yet even your complaint was riddled with insults. I've lost track of the amount of times you've called me a dick now. It definitely isn't "clear" that I was "egging" you at all considering how you barely even understood my final point about arrows and spears so it's definitely somewhat strange that you think you can assume what my true intentions were.

No, I don't particularly know you, and it isn't my fault that you have a short temper and I'm not going to treat you as if you're above the rules just because you say you "have a short fuse". That isn't my concern, that's your problem. I haven't broken any rules, and no you didn't just "break one" as I've cited the four times in total you insulted me throughout the entire incident, with only the final being met with consequences. I was actually being lenient, I don't usually let people insult me, but in my good faith I assumed you were at least joking at first but your complaint statements confirm what you had already revealed. Your hostile tone became very obvious indeed. Again, it isn't my fault if you have a short temper and admins/mods shouldn't need to tiptoe around someone and give them special allowances just because they say they're like a "nuclear device exploding". That isn't part of our jobs, we aren't counselors, when it comes to chat we're there to enforce rules.

Yes there may be some level of misunderstanding here, and I notice in the comments some of you have said that I told Zerg he "does nothing but complain", and it's important to note I never actually said that. Whatever this seems like at least now you can see it from my point of view. A lot of you know I can be aggressive when it comes to debate on certain topics but hopefully you can see that I tried continuously to lighten the tone and wasn't trying to insult anyone. I would like to move on from this incident but I can't accept that saying someone is complaining and that they're sensitive is any kind of insult especially when you compare that to being called an ass, a dumbass, a dick and are told to fuck yourself. Also, readers should note that the admin Scarface who was present at the time agreed with my decision, and that KingClyde who was present towards the end of the incident or immediately after asked for the circumstances and was given the facts by myself and Scarface and agreed that the ban was just. Anyway I had no idea this would be so long, so you have my apologies if you made it this far.

-- 05:12, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I had a small heart-attack when I saw the length of this message. xD Is it bad that I actually read through it all? Anyways, onto the important matter at hand. I think Cartman! defended himself very well, but at the same time I can see why a misunderstanding might have taken place with the end result of Zerg feeling he was being discriminated against. I don't believe Cartman! deserves any fallout over this; aside from now knowing that his words can be taken offensively by certain users, and I do think that Zerg should partially be held accountable for the way he reacted to the whole situation. Honestly though... I think this whole matter was just taken a little too far because both sides were receiving mixed symbols, so maybe we should also cut Zerg a little short on his chat ban? I'll be reading through further comments to help come to a consensus on this matter. ^Skål! 05:32, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I read the whole thing too :P
From what I understand, Cartman meant no harm, and the ban seemed fair considering he was insulted several times. No offence, Zerginfestor, but I'll have to support Cartman on this one. Three days isn't that long, anyway. 05:49, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have to ask, why complain about this complaining Cart? This kinda seems like something you would do if you were trying to irritate someone.Agent c 14:12, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Simple, to broach the subject in more of a teasing manner. A subject I have heard mentioned by a great many chat goers now. I simply did not expect the same kind of venom and anger that I was given from the outset, and my response hopefully explains how I continuously attempt to change the tone at almost every opportunity. As for irritating, of course I'm not trying to make someone angry with one single comment such as that, I haven't encountered many people on chat and elsewhere who would have taken it in such a way and immediately become enraged. If this happened with other users, even if someone told you yourself that you were complaining even when nobody was talking, do you really think you'd find it so offensive and declare it a bannable offence and an insult in the manner of Zerg? And then despite my overt attempts to lighten the tone? I can also appreciate the fact that this entire incident could be a misjudgement of the tone itself, which may explain why Zerg is continuously attempting to guess incorrectly at my intentions and his extreme anger over otherwise insignificant comments. Again, pointing out that someone was complaining is in no way some kind of "secret troll master plan" designed specifically to irritate him as I have been accused of. -- 17:13, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I thought hard before writing this and tried looking from both Zerg's and Cartman's standpoints, and specially what I would have done were I in each of their shoes. Reading back through the log I can say a lot of your arguments hold up Cartman. I see the unnecessary insults and the emotional overreaction from Zerg, and even see many genuine attempts from you to lighten the mood and sway the discussion to a more humorous tone. But I also see from him a continued desire to just be left be, and a continued stoking from your part.

Saying "don't push me" wasn't a threat in anyway, specially since as an ordinary user and not a mod or an admin he has no actual power to back up threats. It is just a call to be left alone. Instead you brought the issue back minutes later, even after everybody else moved on. Still with a lighthearted attitude, indeed, but that also makes me think you were enjoying the situation. Can you honestly say you weren't finding it amusing?

As I said, I tried to think what I'd have done in each case, and I'd have never reacted like Zerg did, which is why I can't really dispute the ban itself (but then again, neither is he). But I wouldn't have developed the situation the way it did either. The way I see it, users with power to ban should go an extra mile to make sure exerting that power won't be needed, and I honestly didn't see that happening in this case. There were many attempts to make the situation lighthearted, but none to actually defuse it. Which could had been done easily had you just left the issue stay dropped after the 'don't push me' and you two just ignored eachother for a while. That's how I (and many others apparently) feel about how you handled this.

I sincerely hope you don't take my position as my questioning your abilities nor authority; I (and everybody else including Zerg himself) fully acknowledge the ban was warranted, and that it's ultimately the call of the mod in question when to warn and when to take action. But given the mitigating circumstances and how Zerg has been a daily regular for months without any trouble, I really believe it would be the best for all if you cut the ban short as a cautionary kick like suggested in the guidelines. Limmiegirl ^{Talk! ♪} 18:44, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

If I can weigh in here, I'm going to say that I feel both Zerg and Cart are wrong in different ways. Zerg's insults are direct and vulgar (i.e. calling Cart a "dumbass", and "fuck you Cart"). I agree with Cart's kickbanning of Zerg, as these were two offences. But on the other hand, I felt Cart also had a somewhat facetiously insulting tone as well, but not as severe in my opinion. It's hard to tell the tone of a conversation over the internet, and this may have all been a great misunderstanding. I don't feel like Cart needs to be punished at all, but only cautioned, as things can be misinterpreted by others. -ΣΔ^{Let's talk!} 18:49, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Can't we just forgive and forget or is it too damn hard? Seriously. Forgive and forget is one thing that this wiki is missing as of late. ToCxHawK 21:31, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Forums are a perfectly legitimate way to debate a ban and they've been used since this wiki was started, so this is nothing new. I think if you would have properly read our comments, you'd realize that most of us are in favour of just letting this all go and giving them both a slap on the wrist since this is such a minor issue. It's all up to Cart, really, being the banner and all. ^Skål! 21:36, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I think I read it all just fine. I know that forums are a legitimate place to debate things. I'm not new around here. Let's just get this done and over with. ToCxHawK 21:40, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I don't think this will last very much longer though. I guess we're just waiting for Zerg to make a final statement and then this forum will be locked and we'll continue on with our lives. ^Skål! 21:42, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Cartman! has been put in question here, so I think a bureaucrat should make the final call.

Limmie: I don't see his "continued desire to just be left be" in any more than two situations, the first when he said not to push me and the second when he said back off. You know already that when he said "don't push me" I didn't take it as any kind of serious issue at that point and continued with my attempt to turn the situation into the friendly banter I would have preferred. Also note that when he said "back off" I just informed him that I'm not the only person to have noticed then I let the subject drop. Nothing after that point can even be blamed on me as it was all down to his own misunderstanding of the spear/arrow comparison. I have no idea why he decided to fly off of the handle over that and still don't. But yes, I did drop the subject. I also didn't immediately ask him what he'd do if he'd push me (the "XD" comment), as you'll notice that five minutes had passed and I had hoped for some kind of change in mood. There was no continuous "poking" and "egging" there at all.

When he said "don't push me", I actually wasn't sure how to take it. And I assure you people don't need mod or admin powers to threaten each other in chat as it's happened many times before and I've seen it myself. Hell, we've even had death threats, so it definitely isn't a case of me expecting him to say "I'll ban you if you push me", far from it. As for bringing it up five minutes later, as explained above I thought his mood may have at least changed somewhat and that he would be more receptive to my clearly jovial comment. I'm not the kind of person who likes to leave these kind of issues bubbling under the surface, if I've encountered a problem with someone I like to face it and talk it out as opposed to allowing the resentment to fester and eventually boil over. And what better way to approach the situation than with attempted humour? And no, it's not really a particularly funny situation, although it would have been nice if I was able to change that.

As for there being no attempts to defuse it, again I'll have to say here that I did actually drop the subject after he said back off, and what ultimately caused me to ban him was him calling me a dumbass and all of the "literal dick" nonsense when I dared to use his own argument against him. This isn't my fault at all, after he said back off I actually didn't bring the subject back up at all after I saw that my first attempt to "see if he's calmed down in five minutes" didn't work out very well. I cannot stress enough how important it is to take note of the fact that his final outburst was due to either his own unwillingness or inability to understand what I was talking about in relation to a completely different subject entirely, it had nothing to do with the earlier incident and I offer no apology as I still can't understand how he can become so angry for the sake of a metaphor about sticks and spears even if he did misunderstand what I was trying to say.

And yes, he may have been "a daily regular for months without any trouble" but this doesn't give anyone a free pass for future bad behaviour, especially when it means exploding and firing expletives and direct insults at an admin, something I cannot accept as justified, as like I said before I would never consider a comment about someone complaining and their very apparent sensitivity on the later issue to be anywhere near equivalent and shouldn't be viewed as such by any rational human being. -- 00:16, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Result

I think both members crossed the line here. Zerginfestor insulted Cartman! However, I believe Cartman! unnecessarily pushed him with his comments towards this outburst. Both a warning, and I'll lift the ban. Let's leave this behind us, make peace and move on. Thanks. Jspoel 00:37, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Simple. I like that. -ΣΔ^{Let's talk!} 22:00, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Let's hope this is to everyone's satisfaction then. Thanks for stepping in, J. ^Skål! 22:03, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well I'm not going to be thanking Jspoelstra for stepping in here at all as I don't think he has reviewed the situation correctly. Unnecessarily pushed him how? And what are you warning me for? A point I've tried to push to Limmie in particular is the fact that the final incident involving sticks and spears was in no way any fault of my own and his outburst was the sole fault of his own misunderstanding and had absolutely nothing to do with the complaint issue which I had allowed to drop at his request. So quite simply I'm not accepting responsibility for being called the names that he felt were appropriate.

I also can't accept a warning in good faith when you consider the fact that the ultimate "explosion" was his own fault and had nothing to do with me pushing the issue. This is proven with the screenshots, the subject is entirely different and he decided to attack me for his own misunderstanding. What is more insulting is the fact that we're both given the same punishment (the warning) while the completely justified ban is removed. For a start, he has insulted me seriously and directly four times within the span of the entire incident alone, and then insulted me many more times within this appeal itself. And what did I do? Made a comment about how he complained, tried to lighten the issue, said he was being too sensitive and then continued his own metaphor. Yeah, apart from the fact that I haven't actually broken any rules it's pretty obvious that punishing us both equally is rather unjust indeed. -- 00:20, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

I will agree that as said in my response, Zerg's vulgar insults, not one instance, but two, are enough for a ban. I don't think you should remove that ban, since Cartman! is the one who banned him for the standard duration. I would see this as harmful interference, although good-willed. -ΣΔ^{Let's talk!} 00:23, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

I do have to admit that Cartman! has been called a dick quite a few times in chat and in this forum and Zerg himself even felt that he deserved his ban. That's why I stated earlier that the ban should be left to Cartman's discretion since he was the one who enacted it in the first place. ^Skål! 00:26, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

A few days ago you insulted another user and let off the hook by Kingclyde, Leon. I think we can do the same here. Jspoel 00:37, March 13, 2012 (UTC)