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Category Proposal: Pure Human - Vote

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Dragon Leon Skål!

Hello fellow Nukapedians. Last week, I had started a discussion regarding my wishes to create an article page and category listing for 'Pure Humans'. For those of you that weren't around to notice, you may find this discussion here. Why is it that we should even consider making these changes? Because in my opinion, those who have been classified as being 'Pure Humans' is an important part of Fallout lore, and it should be properly mentioned on this wiki. What is the definition for this concept, by Fallout standards? "Any human that is relatively radiation-free and has undergone no form of pre-mature mutation(s)/adaption due to an extended and unprotected stay in the radioactive wastelands of post-apocalyptic Earth." So, if I may, I would like to present with you a list of which individuals and factions would fit into this new category:

  • The Enclave
  • Certain BoS members
  • Vault dwellers
  • Marie (The Pitt)
  • The Think Tank
  • Zion Canyon Tribals - This excludes the White Legs, as they are not native to the radiation-free lands within Zion Canyon.
  • Certain Mothership Zeta prisoners
  • Pre-War mentioned-only characters - This includes Operation Anchorage characters that have been confirmed to exist.

This list may not be complete. If you have any information that should be added, please mention so in the comments section below. Thank you in advance.


What Changes Would Take Place?
  • A new category listing to place under all NPC, PC, and faction article pages that fall under the 'Pure Human' classification
  • A new article page detailing the history behind the 'Pure Human' classification and its relevance towards Fallout lore. This will include a list of all known humans classified by canon as 'Pure Humans'.

Voting

Vote {{Yes}} to retain the policy
Vote {{No}} to remove the policy
Please vote objectively, independently, and thoughtfully
Poll finished on 6:51 pm August 13, 2012.
Poll
  • A consensus must be reached by voting before any action is taken.
  • You can vote by placing one of the following lines in the appropriate section:
    • Use # {{yes}} ~~~ if you support the proposal.
    • Use # {{no}} ~~~ if you are against the proposal.
    • Use # {{neutral}} ~~~ if you wish to abstain.
  • Please do not edit other people's votes.


Yes

  • yesIcon check I think it wouldn't hurt to have one. Of course, this means we have to edit the Human page...--For NCR (talk) 19:14, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

No

  • noIcon cross noIcon cross noIcon cross noIcon cross Absolutely not. "Pure" humans are entirely a fabrication created by the Enclave to justify the eradication of humanity on the mainland. It is only ever used by the Enclave, and only in the context of reinforcing the baseless propaganda that people living on the mainland are near-human creatures fit for extermination. The very fact that a proper criterion for determining racial purity cannot be established should be proof enough that it is a baseless distinction to make. Furthermore, due to the natural background radiation of Earth, every human will have a radiation count. And since I anticipate this will be brought up: no, the Master does not refer to pure humans. He refers to prime normals; normal humans that are prime candidates for dipping due to their relatively low radiation count. And last, NO, NO, NO. Reinforcing Enclave's baseless, misguided racial theorems is completely stupid. Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 19:15, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross For pretty much the same reasons as Tag. Plus the info is already covered in the human and Enclave pages, I see no reason to expand the info beyond that for such a small instance within Fallout lore, upheld by only a single faction. User avatar tagUser Avatar talk 19:29, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross I can't say it any better myself.--Ant2242 (talk) 19:35, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross Because its going to cause a debate over who is a "Pure human", and as Tag pointed out under Curling's definition since F2 not even the Enclave would meet that definition - they're too exposed to radiation now, and the Think Tank are brains in a jar, not what I'd call Human anymore - not much more human than you're average robobrain. Additionally, I don't see what benefit this would bring - Categories are there to help sort and cross reference information, is anyone really out there looking for more "Pure Humans" on the wiki and frustrated with the lack of this category? In Short, I dont see what problem this solves, and see it creating more instead. Agent c (talk) 20:14, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross Although you have good ideas regarding this, Leon, it is simply not worth the highly-potential trouble. --Skire (talk) 20:19, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross While the information on "pure humans" should be somewhere (perhaps either/both the humans or Enclave pages), I don't believe this is notable enough to merit it's own category. This is tantamount to me asking for a "Revolvers" category. The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg
  • noIcon cross Tag took the words right outta my mouth. Radiation trianglePrepare for the Future!Radiation triangle
  • noIcon cross Would cause too many debates. Cheese Lord
  • noIcon cross Kingclyde (talk) 06:41, August 20, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross Tag could not have said it better. In that light, we would have a "smoothskin" category as well. It's superfluous, and there are already enough (Arguably a little too many) categories as it is.--Bunny2Bubble 06:50, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Neutral

  • neutralIcon neutral To be pure is to be radiation-less, as we all know. That should make an new race. However, with a discussion with Charles Curling, it seems that humans with radiation are how the humans in Fallout world are defined. So, I'm not sure it would be the best thing to enter the pure-human category, as it is a new race (compared to irradiated humans) or they are same as the other humans,, just without radiation. Energy X 19:52, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Community Discussion

  • @For NCR: Not necessarily. :) That page has a nice little sub-section involving 'Pure Humans', and I don't see any reason to change it. I merely want to create an actual stand-alone article page providing fuller details into where the term came from, along with a list of every person and faction that has been canonically referred to under this term. Dragon Leon Skål!
  • @Tagaziel: I completely understand your rationale. However, this is a wiki, and I believe that we should cover every ounce of knowledge the Fallout universe can throw at us. While the 'Pure Human' term is entirely up to interpretation, and it's almost entirely the Enclave who uses this term, it's still an important part of Fallout lore. Dragon Leon Skål!
    • Then make a subpage or heading on the Human article outlining this concept, stating directly, that it has been only used by the Enclave, in a racist, genocidal context, and it is unknown if it has any, if at all, backing by actual evidence. A subcategory, separate article and long-reaching conclusions are essentially baseless speculation.
      • This term has not only been used by the Enclave, as well as the term being used in every game up-to-date. (With the possible exceptions of Tactics and BoS.) As for evidence, they do provide in-game evidence, evident by which humans were infected by FEV, and by the fact that only pure strains of humans could evolve into proper Super Mutants. (With the only side-effect being sterility still.) Dragon Leon Skål!
        • It isn't use in any game beside Fo3 and Fo2, and even then it's limited to the Enclave. The "evidence" you cite is you bending facts to fit your theory. Fact: FEV-II requires an organism with a low level of genetic damage. Fact: Radiation is only one of the ways in which DNA can be damaged, per ZAX. Fact: The Master only makes distinction between normals and prime normals when it comes to candidates for dipping. Outside, they are kept zusammen-together. Fact: There is no recipe for the perfect supermutant. As stated by ZAX, which assisted in the development of FEV, the virus is unpredictable due to its partial dependance on the genetic code of the subject. Radiation may amplify the problem, but a low radiation count is not a guarantee of proper evolution. "Pure" is a racist Enclave distinction. Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 20:09, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
          • Those are very good points, and I'm going to put some serious consideration into them. I seem to re-call the term being used by quite a few factions though. (BoS, NCR, the Vault Overseer from Fallout 2, The Master from Fallout 1, and I even seem to recall the term being thrown around in Tactics. But I've hardly played that game at all, so I could be entirely wrong. I'm going to have to load up a few games and personally check my sources before providing any real counter-arguments, if any are to be had. Dragon Leon Skål!
  • @GhostAvatar: Yes, but barely. What I wish to do is expand upon where the term came from, and who has canonically been referred to as a "Pure Human'. And no, it has not only been referenced to from a single faction. The term has been referred to in almost every Fallout title up-to-date, with the possible exceptions of Tactics and BoS. Read my responses to Tag to see my further thoughts on the matter. Dragon Leon Skål!
  • I just have an idea - if the idea is that the Enclave came with that "philosophy", why not write it (like a note - "According to the Enclave principles, this is a Pure Human" or something like that). Energy X 20:01, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • @Agent c: There could be no debate, I already mentioned that we would only include characters and factions that are canonically stated as 'Pure Humans'. As for your argument on the Think Tank, they're still human. They're also technically robots, but that would essentially be the same thing as saying the Courier isn't a human since he's an android. As for what benefit this would bring: It's because we're a wiki. It's our duty to include as much lore on the subject of Fallout as possible. Whether this brings controversy or not isn't the point. Why do you think wikis require such a large community to run it in the first place? Because it's our jobs to get the facts right. Dragon Leon Skål!
    • The courier may have some cybernetic enhancements (he isnt an android, I presume that was an unintentional error), but that is a long way from saying that a brain in a jar is a "Pure human", it isn't - its a posthuman. It hasn't even attempted to keep human form. There might be an argument based on genetics for calling them human, but "pure", well for something that there could be no debate on, this certainly looks like one - Toci, do you have a Divide ready ;-) Agent c (talk) 20:29, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Pure-Bred Super Mutants

As a separate vote, - Only if the original vote above passes will this vote actually mean anything. - I would also like to propose the addition of certain Super Mutants into the pure-human category. Why is this? As stated in Fallout canon, most Super Mutants are created with a superior physique, yet severely lacking mental prowess. This was solely because of issues during the forced evolution, due to the subject in question being irradiated. (No matter how little or how much.) The only Super Mutants that evolved in the way that the Master truly envisioned were humans that were absolutely radiation-free. Please take these into account before making your vote:

  • Super Mutants remain disease and radiation-free after their forced evolution.
  • Do you consider Super Mutants as still human? Or would you consider them as being an entirely new species now? (This is entirely up to interpretation, and is up to the community on how we should perceive them.)
  • Do you still consider a sub/meta human as fitting into the 'Pure Human' classification?

Voting

Vote {{Yes}} to retain the policy
Vote {{No}} to remove the policy
Please vote objectively, independently, and thoughtfully
Poll finished on 6:51 pm August 13, 2012.
Poll
  • A consensus must be reached by voting before any action is taken.
  • You can vote by placing one of the following lines in the appropriate section:
    • Use # {{yes}} ~~~ if you support the proposal.
    • Use # {{no}} ~~~ if you are against the proposal.
    • Use # {{neutral}} ~~~ if you wish to abstain.
  • Please do not edit other people's votes.


Yes

No

  • noIcon crossIt wouldn't fit. We have plenty of info about pure Super Mutants on the Super mutant page. Adding a page for something that is not needed, since the info is already somewhere else, shouldn't be made.--For NCR (talk) 19:22, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross There are already two different "classifications" of Super Mutant in Fallout lore. A) Mariposa Super mutant B) Vault 87 Super mutant both are from different derivitives of the same base FEV. Thats all there should be.--Ant2242 (talk) 19:39, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross Super mutants (like ghouls) are just a new species. They have new abilities (radiation resistance, evolved muscles, etc.). Though I should mention that most humans dipped into FEV were Pure Humans (according to the Enclave principles), so that would make them all former humans (like ghouls, though it would seem rendundant). Energy X 19:59, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross Again, I cant see what problem this solves. Agent c (talk) 20:17, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross --Skire (talk) 20:20, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross Redundant vote, since I voted no on the above. The Gunny  380px-USMC-E7 svg
  • noIcon cross Once again... NO! Radiation trianglePrepare for the Future!Radiation triangle
  • noIcon cross Kingclyde (talk) 06:41, August 20, 2012 (UTC)
  • noIcon cross I'm not going to expound upon my vote other than how unnecessary it is.--Bunny2Bubble 06:53, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Community Discussion

  • @For NCR: A page for this wouldn't be made. The Super Mutants in question would be mentioned under the 'Pure Human' article page. That's it. (Along with a category listing under their respective pages.) Dragon Leon Skål!
  • @Ant2242: That has nothing to do with this vote. >.> I'm not entirely able to follow your logic here. As for those being the only two classifications of Super Mutants in Fallout lore, you're entirely wrong. It's been canonically stated that there are such things as pure bred Super Mutants, which are created by radiation-free humans. Some good examples would be Marcus, Attis, and Lou. Dragon Leon Skål!
  • @Energy X: I completely understand, and it is a difficult task to tackle. (In my opinion.) For instance, one of the thoughts that I've been juggling in my head that compares to this vote are dogs. We've force bred dogs into all sorts of different sizes and shapes, yet they're still classified as dogs. But at the same time, dogs originally came from wolves, yet they're two entirely different species now. So it's all a debate really of how much change and evolution is needed to classify something as another species. Dragon Leon Skål!

Conclusion

After seeing all of the votes so far, I've now decided to just go ahead and close down this vote. I can understand where most of you are coming from, but I'm also quite shocked at some of the other votes made here. For instance, since when are there "...too many..." categories on a wiki? I don't know. It's just last time I checked, wikis are used for the recording of any and all information regarding the subject the wiki covers. But, I cannot ignore all of these negative feelings towards this concept I've tried to introduce. So, I'm going to drop the new article page and categories idea, and I'll just have to settle with expanding the 'Pure Human' sub-category on the humans article page. Thanks a lot for your votes, everybody! While I might not agree with most of you, I still appreciate all of the feedback given here. Dragon Leon Skål! 06:58, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

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