Talk: New User Network

Introduction

Okay, Well we're obviously new at all of this, so I'm not entirely sure how we should do all this yet, I guess we just see how things are go, and then try and build some "best practice" around how it all goes. For now, I'll try and put you in contact with someone who matches your times, unless one or the other party asks for the other person by name (so Mentors, you can ask too), and see how things go. Any suggestions of course are cheerfully welcomed. Agent c 22:50, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Pairings

Matching times is, as you state, probably the best idea. Also, it would probably be helpful to match as best we can with the type of edits or areas of interest the new user is interested in. Say, someone whose interest is in weapons would be great to match with me, but someone whose interest in adding images might not be. We can all teach basic editing, but if we can match styles, we'll be more effective. The Gunny 23:09, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense. If Mentors want to add their specialist subjects in here, I'll match as best I can. Agent c 23:16, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Using Chat

I'm looking to experiment with using Chat as a part of the NUN stuff, particularly with lesser skilled users. If you can get both of you into chat, talk about the edits you're both making, how to what needs changing, what needs editing, what makes something good, bad, etc. Agent c 23:58, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

NUN Mentor Update - June

Hi Folks, I've pointed our mentors here for the first of what may be occasional updates. I do recommend following the page as I'm hoping to share best practice and other tips here on the talk page - and hope you'll share some too.

Matchmaking

I just want to give some insight into the pairing process. Its not just a matter of first in best dressed. When pairing I initially open with three questions to guide who I'm going to pair with:

• What times is the "mentee" likely to be on, and what timezone are they in.
• What games does the "Mentee" prefer
• Do they have any specialist subjects or needs?

I also take into account the following:

• Recent Edits - looking to see what the quality of these is, and what problems if any are immediately evident - is it a matter of writing to style, adding correct wikicode, etc.
• Talk page - who has the mentee interacted with, what was the content and tone of these messages and how are the participants likely to view each other afterwards
• If the Mentee is on now (and which mentors are on now)

Based off this, I then try to use the following criteria, more or less in this order.

• If someone needs the help of a "specialist", this almost always takes priority. If someone can write to our style guides and just needs wikicode help, I'll pair them with a wikicode specialist - especially if they seem to have an interest in working in this sort of stuff. Similar for other areas.
• I try to match based on continent and area next. There are multiple reasons, first and foremost is editing times are likely to match up. However there's also the possibility of similar culture, experiences, and for non English native folks, similar language - it hopefully gives you more in common and help you both communicate better.
• Matching games is a tertary consideration... If people have similar preferences for games, they're likely to edit in similar areas of the wiki and be able to offer better advice.
• Looking at talk page stuff works both ways. If someone has had a disagreement with someone, I'm inclined to pair with someone else for both peoples sake... Conversely if someone has already had a constructive experience with someone, why not pair them?
• If a mentee is on right now, I'll try (generally as long as it doesn't break the other rules) to match with someone on now. If things look desperate and someone is having real trouble (or headed for a ban), I'll break other rules to match.
• At the moment, the plan is to try and keep a 1:1 ratio, but when things start getting busy again, I'll review this.

I hope this explains why with some I've paired more potential mentees than with others.. Its not a criticism of you if you haven't been paired, or if someone else has had more potential pairs, just a matter of trying to use our resources in the best possible way, and find the right person for the job.

Post matchmaking

Once paired, you're more or less both left to your own devices. I do try to check in on both parties after a couple of weeks. If the mentee hasn't posted in a while I'll post a "Is everything OK" message to their talk, and if no response is coming after a few weeks I'll probably delete the pair from the project list and start looking for someone else for you.

I also try to check in on both sides - see if there's anything in particular that has helped that we can use elsewhere, and see how the mentee is coming along. Its not intended to be meddling, but me looking for ways to develop the programme so when things get successful we have the right tools to keep more editors.

I do encourage you all to try and be a bit hands on, review some of their edits, maybe talk about them in Chat, tell them what they're doing well, and suggest how they can improve the other stuff.

At the moment, its between both of you when the official programme ends, but as a general guide my thoughts are if someone has achieved patroller status, they probably don't need us anymore. But this isn't a hard and fast rule, and the official "Graduation" doesnt need to be the end of the relationship.

Mentee Recruitment

I know its frustrating when someone is paired only to disappear, or if you haven't been paired at all. In some ways, this is both the right time, and the wrong time for this project to kick off.

• Its the wrong time, in the sense that visitor and editor numbers are probably much lower than average as there is no excitement about a new or recent game. Finding folk, and keeping them interested in coming here is a hard task.
• However, its the right time, as this gives us the chance to find out what works, and what doesn't, so that when the good times appear we can keep the next generation of editors.
  

I'm sorry if you haven't had the chance to work with someone, or if the person you've been paired with hasn't come back - sadly that's the nature of a wiki in that people can drift in and out at any time. However, we do have a graduate who is promsing to go on and do some great things, and a second coming very soon. A couple of editors here I think have been encouraged to stick around even if they're not quite ready to edit.

What you'll probably see from me is some more "proactive" promotion of the programme. If I see someone having some problems with reverts, I'll send em a nice friendly message suggesting we can help. If you see someone struggling, I hope you all do the same.

Blitzes

One last thing now I think of it. Wondering if folks think it might be worthwhile trying to arrange a blitz. I know theres a few non official NUN "new users" who are interested in them - Happylice comes to mind as one. They act as an opportunity for people to get real time help with edits, and the many-hands principle also comes into play. Agent c 23:13, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well that's about it from me, if anyone has any suggestions, tips or questions, feel free to post em below and we'll see what we can do. Agent c 21:30, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

Comments

I think you've been spot on so far with your procedures. I wouldn't suggest anything different. I'm more than happy to help with some messages. I can probably modify the notice template easy enough for that, maybe even add it to the notice template. (that is when Ghost finishes correcting my mistakes:P). The Gunny 22:14, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

I agree fully with Gunny, everything's been going quite smoothly with your coordination of the NUN. --Skire (talk) 22:47, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

I have noticed an amount of users who join the NUN for one or two days, then lose interest and are never seen again. It is a bit of a disappointment, especially considering the success of the first mentee, Crimson Frankie. A perfect recent example is Arahant, who quit as soon as they were paired. There's really not much that can be done about it, but I think the best thing for a mentor to do is develop a friendship with their mentee, or introduce them to like-minded users. Friends on the wiki will give them more motivation to return.
As for Gunny's point about a message, I'm going to have to disagree. Although it would be neater and look nicer, it's also a lot more impersonal. For all they know a computer could have sent that, and they wouldn't have any obligation to respond. I think a personal message from Chad is much more welcoming and something that new users would feel more comfortable responding to. I personally wouldn't bother responding if I got a generic automated message show up on my talk page. Adding the NUN to the welcome template will suffice in my humble opinion. 00:17, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think the NUN is already in the welcome template. It doesn't matter either way to me if C wants a template or not. I suppose it's up to whoever is gonna take on leaving the messages. I do agree with you points about it being more personal to leave a real message and engaging them quickly into the community.-- The Gunny 00:23, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

I've been thinking about it myself. You're (Yessie) right on the personal message thing, and I've had similar thought before I saw this thats making me think again. A template however makes it easier, and allows others to join in encouraging folks, whilst allowing me to "manage the message". It also helps highlight "official" NUN messages. There's benefits on both sides... Maybe the middle option is the way to go, something like the "ban template" you did for me Yessie that has the highlight and base text, but is ultimately as editable as I/other folk "marketing" like. Agent c 00:30, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sort of in agreement here. An automated, standardised message doesn't seem too friendly or welcoming. It's like saying, "Hi! You should join the NUN so we can help you with your editing although we don't care enough about you to manually write out a message. Have a nice day!" --Skire (talk) 00:32, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I think manual, personalized messages would be a lot better. It's a lot more convincing and friendly. I agree with everything else, though. ~ Toci ~ ^{Go ahead, make my day.} 00:51, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. Taking all this into consideration, we could still make a simple template message, but make it look like regular text. Most folks wouldn't know the difference. Like how rwwr works. It just substitutes pure text, no background. I would *look* like a regular message, but allow Chad to "manage the message". Just some thoughts. The Gunny 01:03, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I've looked over this a few times today, and I have no idea what I'm meant to say as I think all the bases are covered. I do want to say I dislike Gunny's notice idea for the same reason as Yessie. Φύλαξ ^{[~μίλησε μου~]} 18:04, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

Here's what I'm thinking of working with... It not so much a template I suppose as a nice pretty way to highlight NUN messages. I'm thinking that ActionBoy/girl should be a bit closer together, but its only a model.

Hi (username), welcome to Nukapedia, and the New User Network

This where I put a personalised message that talks about what I can see to date.
It should go over a couple of lines to make it all fit good and seem friendly too.

To help pair you with a mentor could you please let me know: (delete as not appropriate)

• What timezone you're in, and what times you're likely to be on.
• Which of the Fallout games you prefer.
• If you have any specialist interest areas, or anything in specific you'd like to focus on.

Thanks again for joining us. Agent c

While I think of it, here is the graduates official red pen:
{{Present
|name =A stylish Editors red pen
|image =Chrisdesign red glossy pen.png
|message =For all your hard work on the wiki to date - hey, do you know how hard it is to find a working pen in the wastes?
|signature =[http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Wiki:New_User_Network The New User Network Team]
}}

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I feel that anything in template box looks impersonal and automated, no matter how personalised the message inside it looks. I would prefer something lacking a box overall. Hugs ^{"Say 'ello to my little friend!"} 13:15, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that template could work. I have it a bit modified (the colour, the images and another note).

Hi (username), welcome to Nukapedia, and the New User Network!

This where I put a personalised message that talks about what I can see to date.
It should go over a couple of lines to make it all fit good and seem friendly too.

To help pair you with a mentor could you please let me know: (delete as not appropriate)

• What timezone you're in, and what times you're likely to be on.
• Which of the Fallout games you prefer.
• If you have any specialist interest areas, or anything in specific you'd like to focus on.
• What experience you have at editing

Thanks again for joining us. Agent c

MS: Destiny conquers all. 07:44, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

I like the pics, but not sure about the colour... Agent c 01:30, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

Graduations

Hello again... Looking to basically start a little tradition that the last person to learn about a graduation should be the graduate. Make it a nice little surprise when they read about it in the news... Agent c 03:15, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

Nice idea. When do we decide when a Mentee has graduated? Is that your call, do we mentors give you a heads up on progress, or is it when they're fully established editors?

Also, J is a mentor now... hmmm, too late to sign up as a mentee?? (I kid, I kid) 13:02, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

Its up to the mentor, but as our two graduates have more or less walked into Patroller status, that seems to be about the right standard for most. No less than 250 edits, and showing enough knowledge of editing that you'd be happy suggesting they run for patroller. Agent c 13:08, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

My mentee disappeared after speaking to me once in chat ;-;, I feel so lonely. Hugs ^{"Say 'ello to my little friend!"} 13:12, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I feel your pain, amigo :P 13:14, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

Changing mentors

As long as the Mentee agrees, I'm more than happy for folks to change around as needs, times or peoples personalities fit. At the end of the day this is being run for their benefit, and whatever benefits the most is fine by me. Agent c 00:04, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Suggested name change

Due to the fact that not all user who have been, are, or may be interested in the NUN are "New Users", I would like to propose changing the name of this project to something more appropraite, e.g. "Nukapedia Mentee Program", or somesuch. A name along these lines may be more alluring to users who feel they have been here a while, yet still desire to grow as an editor and may wish mentoring. Suggestions, comments, questions?  The Gunny   22:15, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

I fully agree. --Skire (talk) 01:07, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

I as well. I think it's a good name:)-- 01:09, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

I think the "Nukapedia Mentor Program" would be a better alternative; without mentors, there would be no mentees. Though I agree not all users who want to join the program are necessarily new to the site, so a "New User Network" wouldn't quite be appropriate. --Kastera ^(talk) 03:19, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Kas - Nukapedia Mentor Program sounds better. 03:56, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Nukapedia Mentor Program sounds fine to me, although New User Network also had a nice ring to it. As I remember it, it always were new users anyway joining the program. I'm a little confused as what to fill in as status. Is that meant to indicate the progress of the mentee or how active he is? Jspoel 14:05, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Js. As for the status, I kinda wanted an idea of which pairings were still actively working together and which ones went dormant. So, active/inactive or even "completed" or whatever. Something to give us an idea of what the current state of the mentee is. If the mentee is inactive for quite a while, we'll just move on. The Gunny   20:02, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I thought I put "Mentor Program". I must have typed mentee one to may times yesterday. But yes, I agree, "Nukapedia Mentor Program" would be the better name. We'll wait for Chad to weigh in, since it's his program, but if we all agree, we'll go ahead and change it. The Gunny   20:10, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

I liked the ring of New User Network as it was kinda catchy; but I can see the wisdom in changing it, if a new name is going to help it better find the people who really own the programme - the people who need or will benefit from a mentor. My official position is Neutral, and I leave this in your hands. Agent c (talk) 20:14, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

I certainly liked the NUN acronym. NMP doesn't have the same panache. I'm open to alternatives if anyone has suggestions. We'll table the name change for a while and let it sit in. Let's revisit it in about a week?  The Gunny   20:23, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Absence

I think we should ask the mentees if they are going to be around. If they expect to be active for 3 days, I don't see any good reason for pairing them. They should then say that they will be absent or somesuch. Energy X ∞ 13:45, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Why my skin itches

The wording more than implies if new members join this "OPTIONAL" program they will be on the fast track to control others as patrollers, Mods, admins and even bureaucrats while those who do not join could have a snow balls chance in New Vegas.

• Is this different from the mentors list ? I know my name was on that list. I don't see it here so I am sure you could imagine my confusion. I give you that credit.

SaintPain→ That was broke afore I got here." 02:18, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

The NUN isn't intended as a fast track to anything. Those who do not join are not prejudiced in any way, but those who do join are typically helped to around the level that we expect a patroller to be. It is no more a fast track than extra lessons in high school are a fast track to becoming a doctor. Anything after that is up to the user, and the NUN is only advantageous in that it helps people learn to edit to help reach that count. Agent c (talk) 02:30, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

My name was removed from the Nun mentors list because ??

SaintPain→ That was broke afore I got here." 02:42, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't aware if/when it was taken off... Did you put it on the list? Agent c (talk) 02:44, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

Saint's name was not on the list that I made the table out of. Sorry, I missed it and should have put it in the table too. The Gunny   03:02, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

Proposed Milestones

In regards to the proposed milestones towards graduation, this is a wonderful Idea, and a great way to measure progress of new users. I've noticed that many new people come for just the chat, and not many are making contributive and positive edits to the wiki's material itself. Getting them more involved with these milestones will help us pass on our own editing knowledge to a newer generation of editors while also making the wiki itself better maintained.

I only have 2 issues with the milestones themselves, I see the value of writing a blog with wiki code heavily involved, but fan fiction? Not really a fan of using fan fiction as a measuring stick of editing capabilities even if it's just for code usage. Also, starting a project just for the sake of milestone is not a very strong idea in my mind, it kind of puts the wrong idea in their minds in regards to what projects are for. Joining and contributing to one on the other hand is a great idea, especially in regards to one of the more active projects (A little Biased here but the Bug Verification Project can always use more users, especially on different platforms, to help with verifying bugs).

Other than the two issues I mentioned, great Idea. ---bleep196- (talk) 18:29, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Basically, I was trying to think of a suitable test for Wikicode addition/usage. The actual content itself was in my mind very secondary - its supposed to be a halfway house between an article creation and proof you can use the code.... If someones writing a fan work or dummy article (like the Apprentice entries), then using a lot of wikicode to me is just as valid as if its on an article... I'm happy though to look at other possible "proof of learning" we can use. Agent c (talk) 18:35, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

These look good for the most part. So far I think mentors have utilised good judgement in determining how ready their NUN "pupils" are. "Uploading 25 images" (for articles, I assume) is something even I have not done, and I'm nearing on 15K edits. Each editor has his/her own niche and it seems to me that having these written requirements may be a little heavy and somewhat unattractive to newer users. But of course I recognise the flexibility of the milestones and it still allows the mentor much control. Putting in on the main NUN page cannot hurt, and overall I do support it. --Skire (talk) 23:26, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe 15-sih? I can also add in some "Weasel Laguange" (Around X Articles, around X edits, etc). Agent c (talk) 23:38, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

As I said in chat, some of these guideline may be harder to reach then others, and as Skire above me stated them may be possibility unattractive to would-be editors. But in the end, as long as the mentor get's to use their professional judgement as final call, it wouldn't hurt having a few guidelines to show them the direction roughly. You get a support from me. --The Old World Relics ^{(talk/blog/contributions)} 23:44, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Just an observation. I made some calculations and... I haven't met requirements even for the first milestone! :))) --Theodorico (talk) 23:49, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

I just noticed that. Why are those items there? It seems quite arbitrary. A customised signature or user page has nothing to do with editing really. --Skire (talk) 23:51, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

It was supposed to show some begining familiarity with Wikicode. You've participated in discussions in the forum, have the edit numbers... You'd just need to put something on your userpage to meet the written standard... But you've shown that elsewhere. Maybe if I reword things a bit... 2 mins. Agent c (talk) 23:55, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

I brought this up in chat earlier. I feel we have to see the NUN isn't just editing. Mainly yes, all no. Every user is here for different users. Some want to be editors. Some want to be chat goers, and others still blog makers. As long as it's a positive contribution to Nukapedia it is all good for me. Personally I see the NUN as more breaking users into Nukapedia, not just editing. And we as Mentors should try and showcase EVERYTHING here at Nukapedia, and in the end, let the user decide where they want to go. --The Old World Relics ^{(talk/blog/contributions)} 23:56, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Precisely why mandating signature and user page customisation is not appropriate. --Skire (talk) 23:59, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

I must not follow correctly. To not mandate things that show of the customization aspect, then mandate the editing aspect? Seems off. Almost like closing avenues. And anywho, I was under the understanding nothing was to be mandated anyways. All the mentor's own judgement. If the mentor feels they don't need those custom things, up to them. --The Old World Relics ^{(talk/blog/contributions)} 00:04, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Except it's a completely different thing. How hard is it to join chat? Or to post a blog comment? User page and signature customisation is up to the user, whether he/she wants it or not. Editing is something that needs mentoring in order to reach proficiency. If everyone's up to mentor's judgement, then why do have this in the first place? Anyway, I digress. Using this as a guideline is perfectly good, IMO. --Skire (talk) 00:10, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Right, so I've changed the format so each of the 4 milestones has a more "fuzzy" goal - Show basic editing, show familiarity with stuff, etc, with the previous "goals" being suggested ways to "prove" that standard. This makes it clear for you guys that they're just guidelines.... I mean if someone clearly gets what wikicode is, theres no need to mandate having a userpage as a specific exercise. Agent c (talk) 00:08, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

I like that alot better. And to be quite honest, seems like it would be more attractive for those looking to sign up. --The Old World Relics ^{(talk/blog/contributions)} 00:10, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Nice! Flexible and outlines expected progression. --Theodorico (talk) 00:22, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Many of these might be more easily achieved after the next game comes out. New users "might" just might feel a wee bit pressured to make new edits and this has potential to encourage unnecessary edits.

• I do not say this as any kind of an accusation to anyone. I'm just suggesting caution.

New members should be advised that blogs, forums, members projects and talk page interactions all count as contributions. That said, over all the Proposed Milestones all look good to me. I have yet to reach a few of them my self.

• Live, learn, interact, encourage & try to have fun with it. That's my thought for the day.

SaintPain→ That was broke afore I got here." 00:40, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Volunteer

For the record, I am still available for mentor work - I have proven in the past that my methods are effective, and at the risk of boasting, I considered myself one of the most diligent mentors that ever signed up for this program, with a consistent and thorough regiment of activity. I might understand if I was removed as a mentor for inactivity, but I have only been inactive for a short period, and I see mentors that have been inactive for over a year still available. 69.247.6.120 20:57, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for not being signed in - this is Leon (GarouxBloodline) 69.247.6.120 20:58, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

In your own words, you're not back (mentors need to be here editing a lot to provide a good example), and you have a bit of a conflict of interest at the moment. Your methods did seem to be effective, and I hope others choose to follow them. Agent c (talk) 21:28, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

Makes sense - I am always up for mentoring, but my activity has dropped off pretty steeply, and I am no longer participating around most of the wiki. For future reference, though, I absolutely love helping out new users, and that was easily one my biggest passions back when I first joined the NUN. I am always more than happy to return and act as a mentor should that service ever be called upon. 69.247.6.120 07:00, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't use the term "editing a lot". That would mean I'd be just about the only one left, right? "Needs to have considerable editing experience" seems the better term to me. Jspoel 15:15, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

Experience is a past thing, not neccessarily "currency". Agent c (talk) 16:07, February 27, 2015 (UTC)